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  #41  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:06 AM
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I don't think the OP cares about pet animals, because as he says, for breeding purposes they might as well not exist.

What he's (she?) is saying is that breeding dogs should be kept only by working people. I completely agree. And preferably, from my point of view anyways, I would rather have people that need the dog for something first, and then care about the breed, then someone who cares about the breed first and then works them so they can say they do. For instance, a person who owned a cattle ranch that needed protecting from people and animals, needed rogue cattle caught, might have presa canarios. And to me, that is the sort of place that should be breeding them. Not someone who keeps them as housepets and gets them to chase after a man in a suit with some sort of baton. Or, another way of putting it is, I wouldn't buy a livestock guardian dog from someone who had them in their house and said "yes, but, they like the outdoors and will sleep out there" and "yes, when they're around sheep they're very gentle with them" and "yes, he's really aggressive towards new dogs on the property." The components might be there but that still doesn't mean it will protect sheep. To me that just doesn't cut it. Or a sighthound for hunting from a breeder that lure courses 3 times a week. I would much rather have a German Shepherd from police K9 lines than purely Schutzhund lines.

Reflecting on that, I guess what lots of my problem is that sport doesn't test gritiness, which is integral to many working breeds. Speculative statements like "of course this dog will protect me, he'd die for me!!!" kinda bother me. I don't think most dogs would die for their owners, if they could help it- there's only one breed that has been bred to stay in a fight despite being exhausted, losing and getting the chance to quit, and it isn't typically used in protection. When someone "knows" that their dog will do something beyond what they've seen with their own eyes, and they use that as justification for breeding, the whole thing goes downhill, quickly.

Now, not all dogs are working dogs so of course it doesn't apply to all. And I'm not saying anything about the practicallity of having all breeders really work their dogs, but that would be ideal IMO.

Last edited by Xandra; 07-26-2009 at 11:40 AM.
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  #42  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:24 AM
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He does have some good points though. Look at how much money people are spending at the vets these days and the dogs are still living shorter lifespans than their counterparts half a century ago.

Look at all the issues with bulldogs, bassets, doxies, pugs, etc. Bulldogs aren't supposed to be outside for more than 15 minutes if the temperature is above 70 or below 30. Bassets have horribly deformed legs but it's "ok"? These dogs used to be able to work and now they need a fairly significant amount of human intervention just to keep from going extinct. Look at Labs; they were supposed to be dogs that could retrieve all day long and now the vast majority either have no retrieving instinct, not enough brains to be able to hold still and alert for hours in a blind or are so fat, excuse me, "stocky" that they're wheezing after two fetches and have massive issues with elbows and hips because of it.

I don't have a problem with 'pet' owners for the most part; at this point in my life that's all Sawyer is...he goes everywhere with me and things like that, but I haven't had him stock yet. But he's also not breeding stock. It's the people that are breeding strictly for show and/or strictly pet homes, placing coat, an ever changing idea of what the ideal "conformation" above all else and breeding out instinct so more "average" pet owners can get their hands on dogs they have no business owning in the first place.
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  #43  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:31 AM
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i don't necessarily see the correlations = causation in many cases.

Did dogs live longer? or did many just die off earlier? is it due to kibble, vs raw. Is it due to the fact dogs used to be able to roam and were better stimulated?

There are too many variables to say anything really.

As much as I am a fan of working dogs.. I can not respect someone who lets dogs die due to things like snake bites etc. Someone who says all natural is best (to the point of letting dogs die) but then feeds kibble. etc etc.

I am not offended... just finding all the contradictions amusing.
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  #44  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:40 AM
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I'm the opposite of the theory. I have an intact dog, yet I am obese. How'd that happen?
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  #45  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:54 AM
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hmm Dan... i have less intact dogs than ever but am getting smaller (see my siggy)... I now only have 3 intact dogs !!!
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  #46  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xandra View Post
I don't think the OP cares about pet animals, because as he says, for breeding purposes they might as well not exist.

What he's (she?) is saying is that breeding dogs should be kept only by working people. I completely agree. And preferably, from my point of view anyways, I would rather have people that need the dog for something first, and then care about the breed, then someone who cares about the breed first and then works them so they can say they do. For instance, a person who owned a cattle ranch that needed protecting from people and animals, needed rogue cattle caught, might have presa canarios. And to me, that is the sort of place that should be breeding them. Or, another way of putting it is, I wouldn't buy a livestock guardian dog from someone who had them in their house and said "yes, but, the like the outdoors and will sleep out there" and "yes, when they're around sheep they're very gentle with them" and "yes, they'll bark passing dogs and catch coyotes"
That's exactly how I ended up with Filas. I was living on a beef cattle farm and we needed something that could herd and was also capable of making the overly large and brazen coyotes realize that their life spans might be shortened if they ventured into the pasture, as well as keeping humans off the property.

It was my own stubbornness and refusal to accept traditional parameters that allowed me to let my Filas realize more of their potential as dogs who can move about in the modern world, still doing what they do, being superlative guardians and consummate companions while still retaining all of their traditional capabilities -- physical and mental -- and exercising those roles in non-traditional ways.

That, I feel strongly, is part of what we must be willing to do if we're going to keep these breeds we love viable and vital. We can't circumscribe them -- limit them -- to only their traditional "tasks." They are capable of so much more, if we'll give them the chance.
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  #47  
Old 07-26-2009, 12:27 PM
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THE op doesn't care at all about animals at all if he lets them die an unnecessary death. HE is responsible for their care if they are domesticated...period. He is responsible for their pain and the waste. Can You imagine if i had let Victor die of his bee sting last week? Shakes head in wonder. I believe here we have laws against neglect.
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  #48  
Old 07-26-2009, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
hmm Dan... i have less intact dogs than ever but am getting smaller (see my siggy)... I now only have 3 intact dogs !!!
Maybe if I neuter Gunnar I'll drop a few lbs. Or maybe the karma from Bruzer and Daisy being fixed is overriding the machismo of Gunnar? Say it isn't so!
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  #49  
Old 07-26-2009, 12:46 PM
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I have one altered one intact.. I managed to drop 10 pounds regained 2 and now I'm stuck at 8 lost. Wonder if it's my altered dog or my intact dog causing me to be stuck at this weight
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  #50  
Old 07-26-2009, 11:37 PM
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Lol they must be balancing you guys out

I never said the op doest have SOME good points...
BUT all this op has given from the start is lectures about how any dog that doesn't hunt is not worhy of life ect.
I do agree that confirmation only events have destroyed many breeds, personally I also feel that a dog bred to do a specific task ie go to ground SHoULD have the drive and abilty to still perform that task...i feel that those showin. Confirmation particularly oN a working breed should have further testing to prove they are more than simply pretty by some ever changing breed standard...
But the issue her is the op seems completly uninterested in others opinions and states so in such a way hlthat it comes off as down right rude...particularly to those of us wib smaller dogs who all to often hear our dogs referee to as rodents, useless, frou frou...
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