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  #111  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:20 PM
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When I first mentioned the whole crispy thing I was just playing around... then I had to explain it and looked like I was being picky... sorry, I knew what you meant, I didn't mean to come off that way.

At any rate, I think DanL hit the nail on the head when he said that most people here have zippo! experience maintaining working breeds, but have read all those criteria lists for picking a "reputable" breeder. These breeding practices are supposed to be "better" than those of the past, yet overall, working breeds aren't getting any better (why would they?)

Ufimych, please keep us updated as the pups grow!
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  #112  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:21 PM
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I agree to an extent that, yes I'm sure he cares for his dogs, and maybe he is practicing a breeding method used in another country? Also, It couldn't have been cheap to ship this dog from overseas. Especialy (sp)? if it does come from such champion hunting lines. So, it seems like he could spend some money on a little better kennel type facility. We once considerd buying a weimeraner from what was said to be a "reputible" breeder. When we had pictures of the dogs and pups sent to us, the parents were tied to a old gsdoghouse with chains, and in noting but dirt. Granted, the dogs looked O.K. at first glance, to be such a "good" breeder the place really turned us off. So,I have no doubt this poster does care for his dogs, but in order to make money you generaly have to spend money, and it sounds like he only wants to make it. He could still take care of his dogs in a "natural" way, and working dogs or not make a better environment for them that will also be more appealing to buyers.
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  #113  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ufimych View Post
Prefer a puppy out of older dogs, if you have a choice. Most hereditary problems pop up at an older age. Parents of 6-9 years of age are a good choice to pick a puppy. Commercial breeders avoid breeding older dogs, because they know that genetic problems show up at an older age. This is how they are overlooking the problems and hide it from others. !
This sadly is very true of the mentality and practice of too many breeders. 'Breed them young before anything shows up.' I have heard this comment come out of the mouths of too many breeders and they are immediately striken from my list of breeders of whom I am have considered a pup from. Although those breeders are generally not even considered by me because they don't hunt their dogs either and are in pursuit of the show ring, so it is a double strike as far I am concerned. This is also true of breeders that rush to finish a dog's CH. in the conformation ring because they KNOW something is going south........yeah that is ethical too (NOT).
And how can either of those be for the better of the dog or the breed??
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  #114  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dobesgalore View Post
I agree to an extent that, yes I'm sure he cares for his dogs, and maybe he is practicing a breeding method used in another country? Also, It couldn't have been cheap to ship this dog from overseas. Especialy (sp)? if it does come from such champion hunting lines. So, it seems like he could spend some money on a little better kennel type facility. We once considerd buying a weimeraner from what was said to be a "reputible" breeder. When we had pictures of the dogs and pups sent to us, the parents were tied to a old gsdoghouse with chains, and in noting but dirt. Granted, the dogs looked O.K. at first glance, to be such a "good" breeder the place really turned us off. So,I have no doubt this poster does care for his dogs, but in order to make money you generaly have to spend money, and it sounds like he only wants to make it. He could still take care of his dogs in a "natural" way, and working dogs or not make a better environment for them that will also be more appealing to buyers.
I don't know. If anyone was looking to make money in dogs..they are in the wrong business. Livestock of any kind is a gamble. There are much more sure ways of turning a profit than putting two animals together and selling the offspring.

Ufimych raises his dogs the way he does because he believes that it is the healthiest way for them to live.
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  #115  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
Ufimych raises his dogs the way he does because he believes that it is the healthiest way for them to live.
I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
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  #116  
Old 07-20-2009, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dobesgalore View Post
I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
I'd go to him before I'd go to someone who does everything "right" (whatever that means) but has no problem continuing to pass down genetic defects because they are accepted as "breed traits". Like high levels of HD in certain breeds, predisposition to things like brain tumors or spinal defects. Continuing to breed shorter and shorter muzzles into dogs like pugs and bulldogs so they can hardly breathe. All of this is accepted among breeders of certain dogs, yet many of them are touted as model breeders.
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  #117  
Old 07-20-2009, 03:20 PM
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I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
If she was under a year old I might agree, but the fact that she is three years old for her first litter says something to me about his priorities.

Not saying I would or would not get a dog from him. There are elements of his method that are interesting, and then some that I wouldn't choose to do myself, but I can respect his reasoning for doing things the way he does.

And I agree 100% with Dan about breeds that include horrible defects as part of their makeup. I could never be involved with bassets or any of the brachycephalic breeds.
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  #118  
Old 07-20-2009, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dobesgalore View Post
I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
I am really curious here, why do you think that? He has *imported* dogs, and that cannot be cheap... He bred at 3, not 1... Just because he does not have a fancy kennel?

To me out to make a quick buck, is when someone breeds simply for the profit, having bred for working dogs for years, this is the focus, not money...

Many may not agree with the methods, but no matter what he does NOT strike me as a money hungry breeder at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
This sadly is very true of the mentality and practice of too many breeders. 'Breed them young before anything shows up.' I have heard this comment come out of the mouths of too many breeders and they are immediately striken from my list of breeders of whom I am have considered a pup from. Although those breeders are generally not even considered by me because they don't hunt their dogs either and are in pursuit of the show ring, so it is a double strike as far I am concerned. This is also true of breeders that rush to finish a dog's CH. in the conformation ring because they KNOW something is going south........yeah that is ethical too (NOT).
And how can either of those be for the better of the dog or the breed??

Very true, and guess what.... some of the breeders I have heard, with my own ears, say these types of things... Would be considered "Top" breeders in their breeds, and would come across very reputable... No thanks...
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  #119  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:08 PM
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I see profit as a huge concern also based on the fact the op stated directly he IS in it for profit...
But again my 2 biggest issues are the complete avoidence of vet care and the utter disreguard that any dog who isn't raised his way are frou frou "unhealthy" animals. It's one thing for a breed to not be your type of dog... But from what the op has said thus far my frou frou toy dog who lives indoors and is 2 1/2 yrs old has a better catch rate than his amazing "naturally raised" survival of the fittest dogs...

Mabel it's the obvious language barrier but thus far the op has stated a snake bite is NOT an emergency (then in reacent post changed it) nor is an after whelp check up, who cares about testing hips, the dog can run and "work" it MUST be healthy...and an absolute no interfernce policy on his dogs whelping, which in an ideal world is great, but n reality one breached pup could kill them all, one retained puppy and there goes your female...
This far everything the op has posted leads that this bitch on her first litter whelped alon outside unsupervised with none so much as an after whel check up and clean out. To me, THAT is an unessicary risk plain and simple. Sure it's "natural" for a bitch to breach and die during a whelp, doesn't mean you should just Let it happen if the option to save her and the litter is there...
These are Man Made breeds, no matter how old the breed is...by selectivly breeding you are removing it from natures hands...
Nature has already proven when left to breed "natural" you end up with a generic medium sized breed usually black and tan with some very specific features...

Personally I couldn't have dogs the way hunting kennels and the likes do... But I don't nessicarily dislike them... In this case however... It's beyond that...
I also don't agree with breeding overdone characterisicts that effect health like that... I feel the bulldog and pug and other short nosed breeds should be taken back a few steps...the shortend noses whent from short to dangerously squished
the highly roaches backs of the AKC shepards is not how the breed was meant to be...hippo bullies, Danes bred entierly for height ect... I absolutly disagree with all these extreems...and personally don't show at akc confirmation purpously...I'll attend the odd local show for fun ect but find the attitudes of many show folks discusting... I do however feel that at least basic genetic testing and the back up of the vets assistance should it be needed should be bare minimums of care for breeding.

Mabe that comes from working with dogs so stotic that they will run jump hunt ect with displaysia, elbow and knee issues ect. I've sen dogs work with conditions that would kill a man...but they don't show the pain they do their jobs,whatever that is and it's not untll to late you find out the dogs hips are going... "Ooopps the dog was working well, she looked and acted healthy she wa th best catch dog ever so we bred her...how were we to know she had hip displasia?"
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  #120  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:59 PM
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[QUOTE=FoxyWench;1432460]

Mabel it's the obvious language barrier but thus far the op has stated a snake bite is NOT an emergency (then in reacent post changed it) nor is an after whelp check up, who cares about testing hips, the dog can run and "work" it MUST be healthy...and an absolute no interfernce policy on his dogs whelping, which in an ideal world is great, but n reality one breached pup could kill them all, one retained puppy and there goes your female...
This far everything the op has posted leads that this bitch on her first litter whelped alon outside unsupervised with none so much as an after whel check up and clean out. To me, THAT is an unessicary risk plain and simple. Sure it's "natural" for a bitch to breach and die during a whelp, doesn't mean you should just Let it happen if the option to save her and the litter is there...
These are Man Made breeds, no matter how old the breed is...by selectivly breeding you are removing it from natures hands...


QUOTE]

Health testing would be better if the OP did it, but how is what they are doing by not testing, worse than those breeders that do test and know that the dogs are effected but breed anyways??? We had one of them on this board, who was justifying breeding their dog that only had a fair (good? can't remember) reading for OFA. How is that better especially when those dogs also DIDN'T work. The anwser is simple neither is right but I don't recall anyone beating that regular Chazzer up over it the way it has been beaten to death here. The OP does have a valid point that a dog that can work all day for years without showing signs of lameness and comes from a long line of dogs that are the same, is excellent proof of a lack of unsoundness. Backing it up with clearances would just be the Icing on the cake in my opinion. And the OP should seriously consider it.

The working dogs that you are talking about, I would have some serious questions to that person about the dog/s. Yes dogs can be very stoic in the moment of working or performance/dog sports but the next day or two days later they do show it and a good handler/owner that isn't blind to what they are seeing would know (whether they admit it to themselves or others is a different story). I would also question how long the dog was working for, how hard it work and if the lines behind that dog were known for being able to work into their teens (taking into consideration the breed/size/life expectancy of the breed etc).

A breeder in the working dog world if they are not careful very quickly can't sell pups to working people if the dogs have issues whether it be from temperament or lameness etc. Word travels fast through those circles and although working people generally don't care about colour, an ear that isn't correct etc but that dog had better be a good working dog and for years, because the tolerance for a non worker or for health issues that effect working ablility are not generally tolerated very well. I know in my breed, if you know the right people (more importantly if those people will tell you) who has dogs that are known NOT to work and who to avoid if your seriously looking for a working dog. Just as it is no different for the show world, when certain breeders or lines produce non-showy, dogs that don't show well. Everyone who knows, shys away from them, although the novice/newbie is often ripe pickings for such breeders to flog those dogs off onto.

Are or have you ever been a breeder to be giving opinions on what is or isn't done pre or post whelp? I personally know and talk to in person or by email at least 50+ breeders (probably more) and to my knowledge not one of them does a post whelp exam with a Vet on a bitch unless they suspect a problem. I consider myself to be a rather limited breeder in the number of litters I have produced over the years, but I can tell you that on the advice of my Vet, other Vets that I know and fellow breeders plus my breeding mentors, that taking a bitch to the Vet for a post whelp exam generally isn't needed nor advised. Therefore I have never done it.

Good grief, the OP has imported the dogs, waited and done research for years, PROVES the dogs as WORKING dogs....therefore investing a lot in them. So why on earth shouldn't they get something back and profit???? The OP doesn't sound like a mill, brb or commerical, so what is the problem??

Personally I think the reason some people are attacking this person is because they are stinging that there is a lot of truth in what the OP is saying about unhealthy dogs, unfortunately the OP used the words Frou Frou, but it doens't change the fact that there is some merit to it. And the only ones getting weathly because of it are the breeders of such dogs, the Vets and Pharm companies.

If breeders STOPPED breeding from dogs with known health, temperament and genetic issues by culling those animals from their breeding programs instead of doing what they consider to be 'educated risks' in which everyone pays, esp the dog and the breed, we would all be better off.

JMO.
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