The Belgian Breeds

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by AgilityKrazii

Thats really weird, AKC should have just kept them one breed with varitiys like Collies I dont see the advantage in making them seperate breeds if they are all really the same breed haha talk about confusing!

Thats were I find the temperaments kind of confuseing because if they are all the same breed then what is really different temperament wise, thats what I really want to find out so I can decide which of them would be the best match for me.

Actually, AKC has proposed combining them into one breed. The parent clubs for each variety isn't going for it.

They do have similar drives and temperaments. The differences are more along the lines of differences from one bloodline to another. Even within a variety, there will be differences as breeders select for what they're breeding for. For example - a breeder selecting for agility might produce dogs that are less protective than someone breeding for police dogs.

Originally Posted by AgilityKrazii

What exactly do you mean by that?

Their stimuli threshold is low, they're quick to react, they frustrate easily.

Some have environmental soundness issues. Some have difficulty recovering. There are some really amazing Mal's who are very confident and stable.

Mal's shouldn't be nervy. Unfortunately, there are too many Mal breeders who overlook some aspects of temperament and produce weaker nerved dogs.

[Hillside]

Originally Posted by StillandSilent

This is actually something I've never understood. So if Mal is bred to a Mal, and has a Terv, does the AKC recognize it as a Terv or a Mal? (oooh, I made a tounge twister!)
I just don't get how one purebred can give birth to another without screwing up the system.

Ooh! ooh! I can answer this one. A friend of mine is a Belgian person and has an...........all black Terv. At least that is what his AKC papers say. Both of his parents were registered "normal" looking Tervs, but Twister is black.

[Pops2]

about 15 years ago, i was taught by a dutchman (kid really as he was in his early 20s but it's what his dad, who worked mals, taught him) that chien de berger belge was a type designation like cur or coonhound. they were already seperate breeds & lines.
Reul's caution against mixing would be equivalent to cautioning bmc, catahoula, leopard cur, lacy, mt cur & plott breeders against mixing their dogs. it's not generally done but some individuals do it to make a dog suited to their specific needs. the problem for the belgians doing it was they were dealing w/ a lot less dogs total and even less in any specific breed.
the opposite side of that is lumping them all together. there is a huge amount of overlap in structure & color between all the cur breeds and if you lumped them as one breed in say britain or oz they would not necessarily see the differences so much as the similarities. in the end they would mix & evolve into one mixed cur breed in the other country especially if you had a small number of each to begin with. that is the threat the belgians faced in their OWN country & why Reul cautioned against mixing the breeds.
ETA
the nervy thing has to do w/ being overbred for reduced bite inhibition. they are notorious for biting their own handlers under high stress.

[AgilityKrazii]

So the key to getting a 'normal' Mal or any other the others is just finding a good quality breeder whos dogs arent nervy.

[Dekka]

Yes I have seen Mals bite their owners in frustration on the agility course. Tervs seem much more mellow. I think also Tervs are popular conformation dogs there are more breeders breeding for a pet temperament.

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by AgilityKrazii

So the key to getting a 'normal' Mal or any other the others is just finding a good quality breeder whos dogs arent nervy.

Pretty much. Not so easy if you go with the Malinois variety, but doable.

[AgilityKrazii]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Yes I have seen Mals bite their owners in frustration on the agility course. Tervs seem much more mellow. I think also Tervs are popular conformation dogs there are more breeders breeding for a pet temperament.

There is actually a dog localy who is a Belgian Sheepdog(Grodendale) who does exactly that, bites the owner on an agility course out of frustration if she is late in her cues or slows down the dog is on her jumping and biting her, she has scars up and down her arms.
I think thats a training issue something that can be solved with the dog learning some rules and understanding that is not acceptable.

[AgilityKrazii]

Originally Posted by corgipower

Pretty much. Not so easy if you go with the Malinois variety, but doable.

Do the Tervs tend to be more wary of things as pups then Mals or does it just depend on the line and or specific dog.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by AgilityKrazii

There is actually a dog localy who is a Belgian Sheepdog(Grodendale) who does exactly that, bites the owner on an agility course out of frustration if she is late in her cues or slows down the dog is on her jumping and biting her, she has scars up and down her arms.
I think thats a training issue something that can be solved with the dog learning some rules and understanding that is not acceptable.

That is certianly a help (the training) I have seen dogs of all breeds do it. But some of the worst culprits, even WITH some fantastic training have been Mals.

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by AgilityKrazii

I think thats a training issue something that can be solved with the dog learning some rules and understanding that is not acceptable.

Tyr learned that it's not acceptable. Tyr was amazingly good about understanding that and respecting that. Until he turned four. With increased maturity came increased drive and increased frustration when his drives weren't satisfied.

Much of preventing it really falls on the handler's ability to not trigger it.

Originally Posted by AgilityKrazii

Do the Tervs tend to be more wary of things as pups then Mals or does it just depend on the line and or specific dog.

I have no idea about Tervs. Mals as pups tend to not be so wary. The wariness comes if they haven't been adequately socialized ~ and not all mal breeders get that part right. It's not so much wariness as it is "omgomgomgsomethingMOVED!!" and "WHOAthe ground feels different iamnotmoving!!"

A malinois definitely takes a level of experience that is easily underestimated.