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  #21  
Old 10-15-2009, 05:59 PM
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see and that to me is kinda silly... Like why would expression be that important? I would think health, temperament, soundness and working ability would be far more important.

I like the the FCI picks smaller height ranges (as in many breeds the north american versions are much larger than the original) but limiting an already limited gene pool seems like a bad move.
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  #22  
Old 10-15-2009, 07:11 PM
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Just to add to Spiritwind's post (BTW, HI!)

UKC standard:

EYES

The bright eyes show great expression. They are medium sized, almond shaped and are set obliquely. They are brown in color, except in merles, where one or both may be blue, although brown is preferred. Serious fault: Large, round eye.

FCI Standard


Eyes

Very important feature giving sweet expression. Medium size (never very small) set somewhat obliquely, of almond shape and dark brown colour, except in the case of blue merles when eves are frequently (one or both, or part of one or both) blue or blue-flecked. Expression full of intelligence, with quick, alert look when listening.

----------------------------

In the Collie, basically it's the set of the eye, not the size, that serves a purpose. The oblique set was supposedly to give them better peripheral vision in the field while watching the flocks. The size part is purely aesthetics. I've heard people say that the lighter eyed dogs are more sensitive to the sun, but I've never had one to test the theory.

It is interesting that the US standard (AKC and UKC) fault the large eye, while the FCI standard speaks against the small eyes ...
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  #23  
Old 10-15-2009, 07:17 PM
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Why do I feel that larger breeds have kinder eyes ? Do any large breeds have round eyes ??
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  #24  
Old 10-15-2009, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbatd View Post
Why do I feel that larger breeds have kinder eyes ? Do any large breeds have round eyes ??
That's just your opinion. I can think of a lot of small breeds that have a beautiful soft expression.



Anyways... Papillons eyes are confusing. FCI states almond shaped and AKC says round. They are generally smaller and not as round as say a chihuahua or pomeranian's eye. They are alert and inquisitive in expression as well as oozing intelligence. Their eyes are very expressive, especially Summer's. Her eyes are bigger than most papillons.

AKC:
Quote:
Eyes dark, round, not bulging, of medium size and alert in expression. The inner corners of the eyes are on line with the stop. Eye rims black.
FCI:
Quote:
Eyes dark, almondshaped, not bulging, of medium size and alert in expression.
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  #25  
Old 10-15-2009, 10:04 PM
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Aww Laur she looks so sweet.

Grammy..

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  #26  
Old 10-15-2009, 10:12 PM
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I, also, am an "eyes" person

Quote:
Eyes-Eyeballs are round and full and look directly forward. The shape of the eye rims gives a slightly almond shaped appearance; the eye is not weak or goggled. The color of the iris is dark brown and in general the darker the better.
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  #27  
Old 10-15-2009, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Aww Laur she looks so sweet.
Thank you. She really is a sweet sweet dog. She is the most people loving dog I've ever owned.

Dekka is just gorgeous.

Trey was also a small breed and I thought he had the greatest expression of any dog I've seen in real life. So sweet and soft.

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  #28  
Old 10-15-2009, 10:27 PM
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Those eyes are all lovely ! I'd consider them almond shaped . I was just wondering if any large dogs had round eyes .
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  #29  
Old 10-15-2009, 11:16 PM
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The japanese akita have very unique eyes they are very beautiful; they almost look like they have eyeliner lol, the american akitas have very diferent eyes they have more a mastiff type eye, they remind me of the saint bernard ones







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  #30  
Old 10-16-2009, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
see and that to me is kinda silly... Like why would expression be that important? I would think health, temperament, soundness and working ability would be far more important.

I like the the FCI picks smaller height ranges (as in many breeds the north american versions are much larger than the original) but limiting an already limited gene pool seems like a bad move.
Obviously the standard talks about more than just eyes and expression, but eyes and expression are important parts too. The expression is actually the last thing talked about in the standard. But the expression isn't just the eyes.. it's everything. Its the way the eyes are set in the head, shaped, color, size... plus how how well filled the muzzle is, and ear set and carriage. The head and expression on a Collie, is what distinguishes a Collie from another breed. It's where breed type is shown the most.

As far as the FCI standard, it is far from the original. The Collies from the late 1800's that were imported into the US (from mainly Great Brittan) resembled more of what the American Collies look like today, rather than the current European Collies. Especially the European Roughs. I talk to several European breeders, on a few different Collie forums. The Rough Collies have changed so much, its almost a different breed. Not only are the heads and expressions totally different (many European Roughs have a Chow Chow like expression) they lack underjaw, have to much stop, no muzzle, low, wide set ears, POOR POOR structure, and obviously horrible movement, gay tails, HUGE HUGE over grown, soft, fluffy coats, that serve no purpose... I have also been told temperaments are pretty poor, not to mention they have absolutely no working ability left in them.

Smooths are a little bit different. The breeders have done a better job with them.

I agree about limiting an already small gene pool, by banning breeding of roughs x smooth, but for some reason they now consider them two separate breeds. It really does not make a lot of sense. From what I understand, the rare chance of a rough puppy being produced in a smooth x smooth breeding, even though genetically it is a rough (carries 2 recessive rough genes.. no smooth genes) it has to be registered as a smooth, and cannot be bred. It really doesn't make any sense at all!

A few months ago, on one of the other forums I go to, a Smooth Breeder from Germany said the VDH (German kennel club???) was banning any breedings that would produce puppies with the MDR1 gene. However, very recently they have overturned this decision, probably after realizing how very small the Collie gene pool would be after such a decision, since a large percentage of Collies carry at least one gene for the MDR1 drug sensitivity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by colliewog View Post
Just to add to Spiritwind's post (BTW, HI!)

UKC standard:

EYES

The bright eyes show great expression. They are medium sized, almond shaped and are set obliquely. They are brown in color, except in merles, where one or both may be blue, although brown is preferred. Serious fault: Large, round eye.

FCI Standard


Eyes

Very important feature giving sweet expression. Medium size (never very small) set somewhat obliquely, of almond shape and dark brown colour, except in the case of blue merles when eves are frequently (one or both, or part of one or both) blue or blue-flecked. Expression full of intelligence, with quick, alert look when listening.

----------------------------

In the Collie, basically it's the set of the eye, not the size, that serves a purpose. The oblique set was supposedly to give them better peripheral vision in the field while watching the flocks. The size part is purely aesthetics. I've heard people say that the lighter eyed dogs are more sensitive to the sun, but I've never had one to test the theory.
I agree with this. It's not so much the size of the eye, but rather the set of the eye, and also the shape of the eye.

Here is one of my girls.. Paris



While I think she has a beautiful shape and size to her eyes, she does have a little to much width between her eyes -- they need to be just a tiny bit closer together. However she has beautiful body, structure and movement, a beautiful outline and finished easily.

Then you have Amy here..



With her singleton puppy. While she has sort of a happy, proud mother look to her, I just love her expression. Not to much width between her eyes.. pretty set and shape, IMO. Real soft and sweet.

As far as lighter eyed dogs. I couldn't tell you. My dogs usually have very dark eyes, but whether lighter eyed dogs are more sensitive to the sun, I couldn't tell you, but a lighter eye does change the expression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colliewog View Post
It is interesting that the US standard (AKC and UKC) fault the large eye, while the FCI standard speaks against the small eyes ...
The funny thing is.. have you seen any of the European Roughs? So many of them have such tiny little, oddly placed, squinty eyes! I think many of the smooths over there have to round of eyes. Size doesn't bother me, but their shape is very round.
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