Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Breeding Ground


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 08-23-2005, 07:28 PM
Mordy's Avatar
Mordy Mordy is offline
Quigleyfied
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,868
Default

manchesters - in my opinion the fact that the AKC only recognizes so few breeds is the joke. there are breeds out there that have been around longer than the AKC itself and have been recognized for years in other parts of the world.

to me, the AKC isn't the "be all and end all" when it comes to dogs, unlike to so many americans. i put more stock into the FCI and their work. to be honest, i find it an even bigger joke that the US still isn't a member of the FCI. it's like most of the rest of the world has the ability to agree on a common goal and work towards it, but a small group of people think they have to do their own thing.

it's completely untrue that UKC "registers anything that has 4 legs and a tail", in fact, their criteria for registerability (is that a word? lol) are stricter than those of the AKC. the FCI currently recognizes 335 breeds, of those, the UKC recognizes 308.

again, manchesters - please do elaborate why UKC championship is "a joke"? just because the registry is not quite as big as the AKC? or because it happens to be "the other team" for you? it doesn't make sense to me to divide breeds into "show lines" and "field/working" lines, as happens so frequently. either the dog meets the breed standard or it doesn't - how can there be two ways about it?


i freely admit i'm not "into" the conformation side of the dog world here in the US, but as much as you would like it to be that way, just because i have had my mentors (and made my experiences) in a different country doesn't mean i am entirely clueless. i've done my homework and if i ever get into purebred dogs again, the UKC would be my registry of choice, simply due to their philosophy on a balanced dog and what i consider to be better breeding ethics.

showpug, i'm also aware of the performance events in AKC, but in my opinion in many areas they just don't measure up and we are coming back to the division between show and working lines, which i just think is ridiculous.

when it comes to the ethics in breeding, sorry, but i don't agree that there should be no responsibility with the registry - on the contrary, that's the first place to start. if you take away that last bit of desirable "legitimacy" that puppy millers and other mass producers get with an AKC registration, you take away much of their incentive to commercially exploit dogs.

richie, you said "but really, I've heard that AKC worries more about the looks of a dog and now the original reason why they were bred."

i'm not sure what was a typo and what wasn't - but i do think you see it the way i do.
__________________
Sabine Contreras
- Canine Care
- Nutrition Consulting
- Product Research

I've been frosted!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-23-2005, 08:34 PM
Manchesters
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Blaming the AKC for anything is like blaming the DMV because GMC and Ford make unsafe, gas guzzling cars. Like "Well, if the DMV didn't register then, then the car makers would stop making them."

Why is it so difficult for someone to understand....IT IS THE BREED CLUBS that set what is acceptable for each breed. It is the delegates from the breed clubs to the AKC that determine what AKC will and will not accept.

As far as showing, UKC does not have near the shows that AKC member clubs hold. Again. They are NOT AKC shows-they are shows held by the member clubs of AKC. There are jokes told of people who send their dogs up to Canada to get a championship in one weekend, so their dogs can be "dual" champions. That is the joke part of it.

I agree, there should not be two versions of one breed. All dogs should meet the breed standard. That standard takes into consideration the function of the dog. And the breeders should quit breeding "whatever wins", and the frigging judges should learn what the hades a dog should look like. The top winning Toy Manchester is an absolute pile, and I went totally spastic when I found out my girl friend had bred Sophie to him!!!!!! Fit to be tied comes to mind.

The judges that put that dog up all the time should be castrated!!!!!! They have helped to ruin the breed, as have the kennel blind breeders. And so it is with many, many breeds. But it certainly has nothing to do with AKC.

Maybe if the UKC ever starts having shows that people can get to, more might start showing. But for what? There are tons of AKC member clubs holding them already. If the clubs don't want to join UKC, that is that.

As far as FCI...who gives a flip? I don't know too many people interested in showing beyond Canada or Mexico......and not too many show in Mexico even.

I showed because I got to see people that I didn't see any other time. I was a giant social gathering. And of course I got to show off my little brats. It was fun. I was not out for blood.

And for someone who wants to show his/her dog, suggesting registering UKC is just plain useless. There are so few UKC shows it would be nearly impossible to find shows!!!!!!

Anyway, since I have no idea what your country of origin is or was, I can only go by what you mention concerning AKC. You don't seem to be all that closely familiar with what they do or don't do, and what they can and cannot do. Blaming them or any other registery for anything is kinda pointless.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-23-2005, 11:37 PM
Mordy's Avatar
Mordy Mordy is offline
Quigleyfied
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,868
Default

Quote:
Blaming the AKC for anything is like blaming the DMV because GMC and Ford make unsafe, gas guzzling cars. Like "Well, if the DMV didn't register then, then the car makers would stop making them."
i'm not blaming the AKC "for anything", it just happens to be my opinion that the UKC has better ethics as a registry. for you that might not be important, but for me it is.

Quote:
Why is it so difficult for someone to understand....IT IS THE BREED CLUBS that set what is acceptable for each breed. It is the delegates from the breed clubs to the AKC that determine what AKC will and will not accept.
it's not dofficult to understand that the breed clubs ultimately set the standard that is acceptable, but it is ultimately the registry that sanctions the shows where titles are obtained. thus the registry isn't without fault when it comes to what is acceptable and what isn't.

Quote:
As far as showing, UKC does not have near the shows that AKC member clubs hold. Again. They are NOT AKC shows-they are shows held by the member clubs of AKC. There are jokes told of people who send their dogs up to Canada to get a championship in one weekend, so their dogs can be "dual" champions. That is the joke part of it.
yeah, so UKC is a smaller registry and doesn't have quite as many shows, so it might take a little longer or a little more effort to finish a dog, but in my opinion that doesn't make it "a joke". neither does showing them in canada for a dual championship. i could argue a similar point saying it's less difficult to get a championship on a mediocre dog in the AKC because you have more venues to pick from and can avoid showing to judges who like a particular style that your dogs don't fit. and yes, i know people who enter shows under particular judges to finish a dog as quickly as possible.

Quote:
I agree, there should not be two versions of one breed. All dogs should meet the breed standard. That standard takes into consideration the function of the dog. And the breeders should quit breeding "whatever wins", and the frigging judges should learn what the hades a dog should look like. The top winning Toy Manchester is an absolute pile, and I went totally spastic when I found out my girl friend had bred Sophie to him!!!!!! Fit to be tied comes to mind.

The judges that put that dog up all the time should be castrated!!!!!! They have helped to ruin the breed, as have the kennel blind breeders. And so it is with many, many breeds. But it certainly has nothing to do with AKC.
i do think it has a lot to do with the AKC. the AKC awards the titles and championships breeders compete for, so ultimately they are rewarding the results - and obviously we agree that these results are not always in the best interest for the breed.

Quote:
Maybe if the UKC ever starts having shows that people can get to, more might start showing. But for what? There are tons of AKC member clubs holding them already. If the clubs don't want to join UKC, that is that.
depends on where in the country you are. but why should the AKC hold a monopoly? doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Quote:
As far as FCI...who gives a flip? I don't know too many people interested in showing beyond Canada or Mexico......and not too many show in Mexico even.
sorry, that is just narrowminded. the US isn't an island in an universe where nobody else matters. lol

it's not just about whether "people are interested in showing beyond canada or mexico", it's about preserving and improving the breeds. why should it be accecptable that an american-bred [insert breed] is something entirely different than one in the country of origin for example? if it doesn't matter, why bother at all?

Quote:
I showed because I got to see people that I didn't see any other time. I was a giant social gathering. And of course I got to show off my little brats. It was fun. I was not out for blood.
i'm not saying anyone needs to or should be "out for blood", and i agree that dog events are a great occasion to mingle with likeminded people, but that doesn't have anything to do with the entire argument.

Quote:
And for someone who wants to show his/her dog, suggesting registering UKC is just plain useless. There are so few UKC shows it would be nearly impossible to find shows!!!!!!
again, depends on where you are. if i'm not mistaken, the OP is in florida, where it isn't much of a problem. and if someone is really into performance events like agility, they are likely to do AKC, UKC, USDAA and NADAC as well anyway.

Quote:
Anyway, since I have no idea what your country of origin is or was, I can only go by what you mention concerning AKC. You don't seem to be all that closely familiar with what they do or don't do, and what they can and cannot do. Blaming them or any other registery for anything is kinda pointless.
that's your typical strategy again, manchesters. whenever you run out of points to argue, you stamp the other person as ignorant about a topic and that's settles it for you. you really need to get over that. just because i don't agree with you on everything in regards to dogs doesn't mean that i'm "not familiar" with the topic at hand. on the contrary, i like the fact that i'm in the fortunate position of being able to compare how things work here in the US to elsewhere in the world. i'm not as isolationist as you are, you know?
__________________
Sabine Contreras
- Canine Care
- Nutrition Consulting
- Product Research

I've been frosted!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-24-2005, 12:07 AM
Whitedobelover
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordy
i'm not blaming the AKC "for anything", it just happens to be my opinion that the UKC has better ethics as a registry. for you that might not be important, but for me it is.

i agree with you.. i am not a big fan of AKC and i agree about UKC having better Ethics registry... i mean my pup is akc and ukc as well as register nadac and more...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-24-2005, 12:14 AM
Manchesters
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

No, I didn't run out of points to argue. I ran out of energy. It takes a lot of strength to sit upright, think and type.

I was just talking to Old Dog.......she can't recollect any UKC shows in Florida. Nor can I.

As far as AKC liability for awards given, that is purely in the hands of the judge. I am not blowing you off as ignorant......not as far as brain power, but being ignorant of an issue to me simply means that one has not familiarized oneself with that issue. There are many things I am ignorant of because I simply do not have the interest or desire to do research.

I have been involved with AKC for 30 years. I have shown in obedience and conformation. It is the breed club that sets the standard for Manchesters that my dogs were judged against. The judge awarded points, etc, supposedly based on the breed club's standard of perfection and the degree to which my dogs met that standard (supposedly).

Unfortunately like everything else involving humans, politics becomes a part of the picture, and quality of dogs goes out the window. It is a case of what handler (male or female) slept with what judge (male or female), who owes whom a favor, etc, etc, etc. Wherever there are people involved, there will be corruption.

However there are a few breeds where this is not the case. Manchesters is such a breed. Jake is not the #1 dog because of politics. It is because none of the judges have seen a decent Manchester for ages, and don't know what one should look like. They think straight fronts and rears are the way it should be. They don't realize that the legs should extend out from under the body when the dog gaits....unlike typical terrier movement. Etc, etc, etc, to quote Yul Brenner.

Oh, and as far as UKC and their great ethics...........I quote from their site..

<<This Code of Ethics is intended as an expression of goals for breeders, exhibitors, and fanciers. It is not to be construed as a rule or regulation to be enforced by punishment. Breeders are expected to police themselves in a civil and responsible manner.>>

Same as AKC. Same as the breed clubs. Dog showing is only as ethical and valueable as the lowest form of pond scum involved in same. A championship in most breeds doen't mean Sheeeet. But there are SOME breeds left where it is actually something to be proud of.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:08 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site