How much past training methods stick with them?

Kayla

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#1
I'm just curious to any more experinced trainer members about how much certain trainer methods may stick in a dogs mind. I have always focused on using positive training methods with duke with corrections at worst being a light yank on his lesh and no's and wrong's which seem reasoneable to me and have been working very well for Duke and I and for an almost 5 mo pup I'm very impressed with how much likes to work. My only question now is that since I've gotten him I have had a chance to put to test everything I researched before getting him and to judge how well it has worked and what has not.

The only thing is that once when we were at the offlesh dog park where he did take puppy obidence classes and where he will be going back for level two at the end of next month, he used to have a phase before he really learned his bite inhibitation that he would literally lunge on to your leg and not let go and with those little razor blades it did alot of damage to say the least. Up until that point I had been correcting it and managing it by yanking his lesh and saying no in a firm voice and the second he stopped ( I usally could stop him before he made contact with my leg) I would bend down and praise him. However this day while he was running around over the jumps and chasing the tennis ball I was throwing for him, he went to do it and I did my normal description and one of the employees who supervises the offlesh area which I have since come to strongly dislike, told me I was doing it all wrong and that he would not respect me if I let him off so easily. I didn't agree but had only owned him for a month and so far he had not stopped nipping which I know realise after being with him much longer is natural as it takes ahwile for any established behaviour to disappear.

Anyways I am ashmed to say that I was easily influenced by her and she told me the only way to correct it immediatly was to grab his jowels the minuite he did it and lift him off his front paws by them:mad: , I felt uncomfortable with it but regretablly decided I would give it a try. The second I started he began to scream and I immediatly stopped and felt horrible and was close to crying.

I've since learned to trust myself more as an owner and to trust my own training methods which revolve around positive reinforcement and mental negative disassotion ( such as using things like bitter apple spray for chewing and then teaching the leave it command and then treating), and using gentle corrections such as yanking his lesh lightly, time outs and no's.

The thing is I still feel guilty to this day and hope I have not somehow making him scared of me at some level and only listening out of fear which I never ever want him to do. I've seen "broken" dogs before once who were only trained by extreme and cruel amounts of force by my friends alcholoic father who for example, would hit his dog, scream at him, or throw him down the stairs anytime he did something wrong, and you can tell the only reason he listens is out of fear and it's almost like apart of him died and he no longer has that energetic carefree happy entitiy that flows through all dogs. I know that it was only once and that I would never ever do it again or allow anyone to but I'm just wondering if anyone knows how much long term affect that will have on our relationship or if it will at all.

I love Duke to pieces and only want him to have the best and happiest life with me so I really hope I haven't screwed that up.

Kayla
 

Zoom

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#2
Has Duke exhibited any fearfulness towards you since then? Flinching, crawling when he gets near you, etc? Otherwise, I think one time isn't going to ruin your relationship with him. I did stuff like that for a lot longer under the direction of a former boss of mine and almost really did ruin the relationship between my dog and I, but we've since fixed it.
 
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whatszmatter

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#3
unfortunately dogs have a very good memory, but in time, with not ever doing it again, he won't think about it. The good news is he's not going to hold a "grudge" against you for doing it. he may shy away when your hands come towards his face for a while, maybe not, he may be past it already. don't do it anymore, and stick with what is comfortable to you and you'll have one happy well adjusted dog when he grows up.


As much as I defend corrections etc, if I met a woman (or man) that told me to pick a 5 month old puppy up by the jowels and lift him off the ground, I'd probably kick them in the face, at least in my mind.
 

sam

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#4
Anyone who says they've never made a mistake in training or never done anything they later regretted is either or a liar or just not that aware.

I made loads of mistakes with my first dog, less with the second and even less with the third. That's just the way it goes. I'm learning too and I continue to learn. I hope ten years from now I'll be better than I am now.

There's not much you can do about the past and nothing useful to be done with guilt. Give yourself a break, move on, educate yourself more about training and if need be, desensitize your dog to handling that he may be a bit fearful of now.

FWIW even for someone like me who is 100% confident in what methods I want to use and not use and relatively experienced competing with dog #3, I have still done things I shouldn't have when given bad advice in a class, clinic or seminar situation. Heck I've just made some of my own poor judgements or let lack of sleep lead me to be impatient. I have certainly drilled my dogs at agility on the advice of my trainer when I knew they were soft and might be starting to shut down. The instructor placed second at worlds and there were people watching so I just kept doing what she suggested. I have since learned that no matter how much of an expert any trainer is that *I* know my dogs best and I can pick up subtle things or understand their motivations and predict thier responses better than anyone.

It's far more useful in training to teach your dog what TO DO than spend a lot of time telling him what NOT to do. If you find you need to spend a lot of time telling your dog NO! you might want to think about teaching him an incompatible behavior that you can get him to do instead. It makes more sense to the dogs too ie. Your dog is running up to and about to jump up on a scared looking woman at the park. Rather than yelling "NO"! and "OFF!" etc, perfect his recall so you can just say "DUKE COME!" and know that he will turn and run to you which will be much quicker and useful in keeping him out of trouble.

I find it helpful to remember that my dogs behavior is just a reflection of his education and training. When it becomes evident that there are some gaps in his training and mistakes happen, skills get rusty etc I don't assume he's choosing to be "bad", "blowing me off" or in any way take it personally. I just look at it as an indication of what we need to work on, proof or practice. Or at least that's how I try to think of it anyway ;)

Dogs may have a long memory but luckily they are also naturally loving and forgiving :)
 

Kayla

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#5
Thanks for the reply's they've made me feel alot better. Duke dosen't seemed phased when I go to touch or handle him and I still get tons of kisses and jumped on in the morning when my mom lets him out of the crate to let him up the bathroom if I oversleep ( can't say i'm not guilty of it now and then;) ).

Actually she just e-mailed me this morning to let me know that when she went to take him up this morning that he immedaitly jumped up on my bed to find me and when he realised I wasn't their ( I'm in montreal for 3 days visting my dad, and my mom and step dad are taking care of Duke for me since he wasn't allowed to come) he went into search mode and started checking all of the rooms for me and then had to be carried up the stairs because he wouldn't stop looking for me. I miss him so much but he's used to my mom and step dad as I still live at home so he's not in a new or unfirmilar place with unfirmilar people, but I thought that was pretty cute that he was trying to find me:).

Back to the original topic, I now know to trust myself more when it comes to what training methods I feel comfortable with, I've just found that despite the amount of reseach I did before getting Duke and even though I've lived with my uncles adult boxer fo 6 years before she passed away ( she was already 6 when we moved in with them), that nothing can really prepare you for the joys and confusion of puppyhood so it's just been a matter of taking what i've read and read and read and trying it out, seeing what works/dosen't work for him and go from their. It can be overwheleming at times, and confusing and even outright fusterating but it also is filled with so much joy and unconditional love that I'm willing to work through whatever comes up to make Duke a well adjusted family pet that loves me just as much as I love him:).

Thanks for the support and advice though.
Kayla
 

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