Attitude towards BYB dogs

I've noticed a curious blind spot on Chaz. It's controversial, and some Chazzers carry it to greater extremes than others, but I thought I would bring it up for discussion.

Here's what you normally see on Chaz: "Backyard breeders and puppy mills are BAD! The dogs are unhealthy and not temperamentally sound. Go for a repudable breeder or a rescue." Some Chazzers even go so far as to tell new members with pet store puppies that their dogs will probably have temperament and psychological problems, and give advice on how to minimize it.

Lately, I find myself realizing how hypocritical that particular attitude really is. Think about it---I would bet that 99.9% of the rescue dogs we sing praises about come from BYBs and puppy mills.

How does that make sense? If we push BYB dogs as unsound, potentially psychotic messes, aren't we hurting our own campaign for the adoption of rescues?

I'm thinking maybe a more moderate course is in order. There are plenty of reasons not to adopt a BYB dog. They may be more likely to have temperament and behavior problems. You don't get the lifelong support of a breeder. And you're encouraging an industry that includes many unscrupulous people and practices.

But I don't think that the "OMG, your BYB dog is gonna be a health and temperament mess" is the right way to go.

Thoughts?

I don't see many folks connecting the two actually. BYB/mill dogs in rescue I mean...two different things...one is putting money directly in the miller/BYB'er pocketbook...and the other is a rescue situation where really...you ARE helping out. The shelter dog...from ANY source is seldom a blank slate the way a puppy from any source is...that's just a fact. Less to do with the place a dog was whelped than where it spent it's formative time...

I agree moderation is never bad...and I don't recall saying much in the way of doom and gloom just because of where a dog comes from...so I am already kinda in the moderate camp on that. LOL.

I think you can get a good dog from anywhere just like a real crapper can come from the best breeder in the world. But it does not excuse what types of conditions these dogs come from and I think that is where a lot of the emotion comes in.

When you're around long enough you see people that get dogs from breeders and end up with trouble (occasionally) and it gets resolved with everyone's best interest in mind. I've seen far more situations where people get from byb or pet store (mostly pet store) and congenital issues arise, poor health, disease, death, and best case scenerio, just a bad case of temperment problems. These situations never get resolved, the owner is SOL and out some big bucks often times

I have no problem paying good money to people doing their work. If it comes down to 2,000 or 20 bucks for a dog of the same breed, i'd rather give my money to the guy doing his homework and due dillegence when it comes to breeding. I'm going to be putting a lifetime of work into that dog, the breeder better be doing the same.

I think it's important to give people the best chance of finding a dog to fit their needs and lifestyle. That said, I find very few breeders responsible, and my recommendations for other people are usually based on a general 'responsible' spectrum.

Many dogs ARE examples of BYBs/mills because well... those dogs are typically bred without a thought as to how their lives will go. Responsible breeders, in my experience, help with any problems that arise as well as use those problems as a guide with future breedings.

Very few people actually maintain high breeding standards.

When adopting from a rescue agency/HS/other similar place you are supporting the people who DO rescue. I don't see how this helps BYBs at all. Sure it's a place to dump puppies, but then they aren't making money on the puppies. Very few BYBs aren't fueled by money.

Actually... more widespread dog awareness as well as awareness of spay/neuter benefits would really benefit ALL dogs.

Looking back, my original post may be a bit confusing, so I edited it. I don't support BYB breeders in the least. But I think that the assertions made that basically say "BYB dogs end up unhealthy and neurotic" should be tempered a bit.

I guess my question would be why? Why make it roses when a breeder who only cares about producing 60k that year of puppies does just that? I'd almost rather people believe that dogs from bybs and mills are not naturally sound just to avoid supporting them.

Maybe a more realistic way of looking at the health and temperament of BYB/puppymill bred dogs is to compare it to a game of Russian Roulette.

Only sometimes you're going to be gambling with more than one round in the chamber.

Rescuing a dog can be kind of like buying a used car. If you do your homework, take it out for a realistic test drive, and check things out, you've got a very good idea of how sound a companion you've chosen.

Sure, things can turn up later that aren't apparent, but rescuing a dog puts you in the situation of seeing the how the dog copes with one of the worst-case scenarios any dog can experience. Abandonment, insecurity, limited attention, often crowded conditions, the smell of fear and death in the air at so many shelters . . . .

The reason I'm going to a good breeder for my next dog is because of the health issues of my shelter/rescue dogs. Luce is five years old. She has two bad knees and something going on with one of her front legs. She is go go go!!! but her body is saying ow ow ow!!! It's not fair to her, and it really sucks.

I don't think I'd ever get a puppy from a shelter or rescue. There are too many unknowns. The same unknowns you get with a byb or petstore puppy. Health? Who knows. Temperament? Who knows. Adult dogs are much more "what you see is what you get", especially with regards to temperament. By the time I have come around to adopt them, their issues are out there for everyone to see if you know where and how to look.

I think it comes down to whether you believe that temperament comes from breeding (nature) or from training (nurture). The whole argument about how "good" breeders breed for comformation AND temperament assumes that once the pup comes out of the hatch, there is only so much you can do as far as socialization and training goes. The kicker though is that if you accept that, then you are more or less forced to accept the idea that there are breed-specific traits, which opens the door to a lot of unpleasant discussions.

My personal opinion is that a huge part of the problem with pet store puppies (aside from some of the more outrageous cases of health issues) is that they miss out on a critical period of socialization and they learn to poop very close to where they eat, so training them and making up for lack of socialization are a challenge. And unfortunately since people who buy from pet stores are the least likely to have gotten any screening or coaching (as opposed to getting from a breeder or shelter), they are also the least likely to know what they are in for.

That being said, both of my dogs are from unknown circumstances. One was a pound puppy adopted at the age of 4 months, the other was an adult rescue who was a breeder in a puppymill and was released at the age of 20 months. According to conventional wisdom, both should be basket cases but I consider myself blessed with both of them. OK the Golden had a bout with cancer but that is almost to be expected nowadays.

Ay any rate, ALL dog owners I think have a right to ask for help on a forum, and if the first thing they hear is they were fools for getting their dog at the wrong place, they may disappear and not come back, which would be a shame.

Rescue/shelter dogs...you are saving their life because someone else failed them. I real rescue makes no money from the fee, it often doesn't even cover expenses of housing the dog. Rescues also screen dogs and temperament test

Pet Store/BYB dogs...the price paid goes to line the pockets of some greedy and cruel $#@&%$. The dogs temperament is irrelevant to the seller it just about the $$.

Your end product (the poor dog) is very similar (except the Temp test) but where your money goes is completely different! If you bye a dog from a ByB or a Pet Store you are financing the abuse and neglect of many many future dogs

If no one bought from ByB or Pet Stores a lot of abuse and neglect would stop.

Because:
- People who come to the forums with a puppy from a BYB are basically told they're doomed.
- It's hard to encourage people to adopt dogs rescued from puppy mills if you're continually saying how horrible those dogs are.
- By doing so, you're also undermining rescue. There's already enough stigma about shelter dogs and rescue dogs being "rejects". The blanket label placed on all BYB puppies basically agrees with that.

I'm not trying to say we need to make the situation into roses. But we don't need to preach that all BYB dogs and puppies are ticking time bombs just waiting to go off, either.

I don't think unexperienced owners should get dogs from bybs/mills because it is a grab bag and you don't want those people jaded. It would be another thing for someone who is educated about what mills and bybs are to adopt and be ready to accept whatever kind of troubles come their way.

I'd rather these people go to responsible and ethical breeders and/or rescues. If it saves people from heartache and it stops the supporting of bybs and mills then I'm all for it. Should the delivery of the message be candy-coated? Maybe. But if someone was serious enough about adding a canine addition to their home they would have done the research beforehand would have known better to begin with.

To me Puppy Mills are just that ......caged dogs that are bred every heat to selling purposes only . To me there are 3 types of BYBs.....whoops litters , ..... " let's let Rosie have at least one litter " ....... and " we could make some money by breeding Tootie to Boots " . Some of these could have nice , well socialized pups . It's the luck of the draw . Do you buy them at home ...or wait until they end up at the HS ??? I would never buy from anyone who breeds twice a year , or has more than one breed being bred .

What you're saying makes perfect sense. However, I wonder sometimes what the chances are of a first time owner getting a dog from a rescue or breeder. Both are usually very strict about who they let their dogs go to.

It seems to be a catch-22:
Inexperienced owners should only get dogs from trusted sources

but trusted sources are often reluctant to let their dogs go to inexperienced owners.

In my opinion a responsible/ethical rescue would do what they could to provide a sound, forever home and would stay with that owner and dog for life. It wouldn't be a "here's your doggie, enjoy!" It would be a "here's your dog, let us know if you have any questions, call so-and-so anytime". Are they rare? Yep. But they do exist and if more people supported them they would be more powerful and able to help more dogs and help educate people. If a rescue truly could not find a match for a person then perhaps one should look at why versus "that rescue wouldn't give me a dog, I'm going to go to a dog supply store".

I know, I know.. I hold such ideals for the world.. but I declare that right to do so.

I think part of the difference between a BYB-bred dog and a rescue dog is the expectations going in. Most people looking into rescue are aware that the dog may have some emotional/behavioral/health issues (although many are perfectly sound dogs in every way). They know the dog is coming from an unknown source and are prepared to deal with it. Whereas someone buying a puppy from a BYB/puppy mill may not know what they are getting in to, and should be made aware of the possible issues they need to look out for.

Age is also a big difference already mentioned. Rescuing a 3-year old dog means you are going to get a pretty decent glance into the dog's behavior/temperment, and the start of a look at health issues. Rescuing or purchasing an 8 week old puppy from 'unknown' sources is much more a crapshoot.

yeah I've probably warned about the temperament and health of BYB dogs but don't say it of rescues. I think getting a PUPPY from a rescue is just as risky temperament wise as getting a BYB puppy, you know nothing solid about his parents and have no proof of good temperament. With an adult rescue they have been temperament tested so you at least have something to go off of. The main reason i do it though is to really put BYBs down, anything to make them sound bad is fine by me because they are bad, and we are not lying, we just don't talk about rescues that way. As BB said, most people getting a dog prepare for possible emotion/socialization problems with a rescued dog but not from a breeder dog because you expect nothing bad has happened in their past and that they have been well cared for when that's not always true.

but you are right, a BYB dog and shelter dog, looking JUST at the dogs, are one in the same, they are both probably BYB dogs.

Emma is a pet store puppy and I tell you her temperment is sharp. She does have a beagle temperment but also a nasty one undernieth.

Of course they do. (Mine comes from a BYB, I should know - it was a connection I made long ago and I knew what I was getting into, yet I still plan to rescue.) As everyone else has said.. most people don't make the connection, and if they do, they realize the differences in where they are putting their money. I see your point and actually agree with you that sometimes we need to tone it down, though.

However... as far as "singing praises about".... Sure we do. We LOVE to see pictures of dogs and hear about their exploits, and praise how adorable/sweet/etc they are. But a whole heck of a lot of the dogs we sing praises about - just on chaz - DO come with problems. Whether it's allergies, like Buddy, SA, housebreaking problems (Belle), fear aggression (Daisy), hip dysplasia, structural problems (Frodo)... my list goes on. The thing is, YES we love our chaz dogs and think they are beautiful and wonderful and the best thing since sliced bread - as we should. But they do often have their own problems, big or small. They often come with fantabulous temperaments.... and then again they often do not. There are usually behavioral or health problems. Now, while well-bred dogs can have these problems, too, and we have examples of that right on this forum.. I find it hard to believe that it's a bad idea to stress buying from a breeder like that if we can.

Thank you.