Dealing with Bamm and kids

EXACTLY. If this thread had been started as "my dog is unpredictably aggressive and I am afraid he's going to do serious damage" then yes, that is different. But in this thread, the catalyst for change is a potential new baby in the family. I meant no disrespect.

If you do choose to keep Bamm in your home and manage him, that decision is going to really depend on how confident you are that you can realistically 100% manage him.

I'm way, way more comfortable saying a dog can stay separate from a baby if this is a dog that never tries to bolt out of a room (even when driven by stress or drive or an imbalance), will not jump or climb over a baby gate, etc. Honestly, if Milo was a larger dog, he'd probably already be PTS...it's very easy for any adult to overpower him or restrain him, and although he is an EXTREME escape artist outdoors, he's never broken out of a crate, slipped through a door, or gone over a baby gate (although I don't at all doubt he could).

And if ever DID escape from his confinement, he's small enough that he wouldn't be able to reach the baby in a taller persons (my entire family's) arms. As a young dog, he could easily jump to the height of my chest, but at 7 years old with a few extra pounds (because my family does not understand not giving him 40000 treats a day), he can't.

I'd be way, way, way more wary around a larger dog with similar issues. I'm not sure how big Bamm is, but if you can't easily physically restrain him/pick him up, or if he's big enough to get to the baby quickly in a crib or in your arms, I'd be wayyyyy more cautious.

But it sounds as though Bamm is unpredictably aggressive, and there is a chance he could do serious damage.

Right now, it's easy for Amber and her husband to manage. They're both adults who can recognize signs of aggression, as well as defend themselves if necessary. Bamm needs to be very closely managed in public, around guests, etc, to prevent damage.

So, while a new baby is going to be a catalyst, it's not as though it's the only factor. It's not like Bamm simply dislikes children or hasn't been around them and a trainer and being sure that Bamm doesn't get too stressed and has his own space is going to fix the issue. He's an unstable dog with a history of unpredictability and some fairly serious bites.

Yes, I get that, but I don't see euthanasia having to be a first option for a dog like Bamm, considering what has been explained about him. If skiddledoo went through all her possible options, and putting him down is what it came down too, I wouldn't blame her for that. But euthanasia for me would be the absolute last resort. That's all I'm saying.

I don't see anywhere where she said it was definite that when the baby comes, he wont be there. She seems very committed to trying to work with Bamm's issues with kids, even going so far to say that she might ask her landlord if she could borrow her daughter's baby things so that Bamm could get use to that new baby smell. It is possible that Bamm could actually like her baby. Skittledo has proven time and time again that she is welling to work with Bamm's issues, but I don't find it horrible at all that if Bamm acts out very negatively towards the baby, she would have to consider another home or worst.

It is very nice that you have a home where you can comfortably segregate dogs. Not everyone has such luxury. Also, not everyone's dog would take well to a crate-and-rotate life. I know my dog would be absolutely miserable in such a segregated life. I would never do that to him, never.

I agree with that. Same here.

Legally a rescue cannot take him. Also if Amber rehomes him and he bites someone, she would most likely be liable. A dog bite lawsuit could (and would) bring total financial ruin on the family. There would even be a risk of jail time.

I totally agree that Bamm has serious issues, an I applaud Amber for dealing with it for so long. She really needs to be commended for it. However, rehoming him has the potential to be more damaging to her family than even keeping him would be.

I work in rescue. We have this situation pop up all the time... Probably more than we should. A little girl in my town was killed by a dog a few weeks ago. The legalities of rehoming a dog with a bite history are in the forefront of my mind right now.

The feasible options are keep him or euth him. I wouldn't fault amber for either one. Tough decision? Absolutely. But as someone who has seen firsthand the legal issues... I cannot in good conscience recommend to Amber ( who I do consider a friend) to keep rehoming as an option.

I should probably qualify all my comments in this thread with: I am not telling Amber what do do. I am just saying what I would personally do in the situation, and what I would recommend if a friend came to me and asked for advice.

I'm not saying Amber shouldn't see how Bamm reacts to a baby and see if it's manageable (or that she should....) but for those of you who think it's inappropriate to euthanize without trying, consider this:

ONE slip up, and that child could be seriously injured or worse. Yes, if the dog is restrained and controlled properly, it should be fine...but there's ALWAYS a chance. A chance he'll break out of the crate...God forbid the baby is in a swing or bassinet and Amber is in the next room or even 10 feet away, and the dog manages to open a door, or the door hasn't latched properly, he gets out of his crate, jumps the baby gate...and gets to the baby before Amber does? What if the baby is sleeping in the crib and Amber goes to take him on leash to the door to be let out, and he slips his collar and bolts for the baby?

I'm not saying that those are likely scenarios, and to many dog owners, the very slim chances seem worth it...but they're also valid reasons to PTS a dog before the baby comes.

And, if Bamm's not that bad at all, and doesn't end up going after the baby like that...what if he's hanging out, even on leash or something, and just manages to nip the baby. Maybe he doesn't even break skin, just a tiny bruise. Or a little scrape. As soon as the pediatrician or anyone finds out the dog did it, CPS will take your child away because you are knowingly endangering your child by living in a house with a dog with a bite history.

I'm not making this post to say that nobody with an unstable dog or dog with a bite history or whatever should keep it alive and try to manage with a baby - AT ALL. I'm doing it (although honestly if it was 100% up to me, I might have chosen to PTS), lots of people do it. But there are very, very valid reasons to euthanize a dog with issues like Bamm's before bringing a newborn home, and to say 'it's not fair' to not 'give him a chance' really isn't considering how risky it is to take a chance with your child's life and well-being.

Explain it better than I can.

This. Over and over.

Why can't a rescue take him legally?

Generally if a rescue adopts out a dog that they know has a serious bite history, the rescue can be held liable in the event of any future incidents. For example... Fido bites a neighbor and the neighbor needs stitches. Fido's owner turns dog over to rescue, and tells the rescue about the bite. He rescue adopts Fido out to a family. Fido bites a visitor, resulting in a ER visit. The rescue could potentially be held liable.

So it would be in the best interests of the rescue to not take in a dog that has bitten. Rescues generally do not set themselves up for financial ruin and criminal charges.

There are rescues and sanctuaries out there that will take dogs like Bamm. My cousin had a dog with similar issues that was placed with one. I don't know the name of it, but they do exist. That's where I'd start.

Yes, this. Just because it is the rescue's best interest not to take them or adopt them out, doesn't mean they can't legally or won't. I worked at a sanctuary that did not euthanize whatsoever (unless nothing could be done to save the dog) and they take dogs like Bamm and adopt any dog out that can be safely adopted out, regardless of bite history.

IMO, as they should. So much can be done to properly train, house, manage dogs with bite histories.

Dogs bite, it happens, its up to us to use our, what should be more advanced, brains to better handle these creatures we own. Not all dogs are suited for all homes and lifestyles and as always there are exceptions but a bite alone, ambiguous as that label is, should not preclude a dog from a second chance at life.

I trust each owner to make the right choice for their dog and I do respect those who put down dogs they cannot handle for one reason or another. That being said I would love to see a run down of each and every situation that has happened with Bamm which has given him the label of "not fixable" and "not safe to live with". I really wonder if there is something to be seen that is being missed, this is the job of the behaviorist really but I'm intrigued.

But if was your dog, and he did end up biting and seriously injuring a child or adult how would you feel? Personally I would feel like I failed that dog by allowing others to put him in a situation that allowed that to happen.

I would question what the new owners did to fail at management.

Arnold bit me when I flanked him while he was fence fighting.

Sloan bit Denis yesterday while frustrated and held back from the sleeve.

Backup bit Denis when he reached his hand in the car without making himself known before.

Shamoo nailed me when trying to grab a tug and again when trying to get away from a dog fight.

Bites happen, I do not believe they are cut and dry. I have been bitten by several dogs at work, several fosters, several of my own dogs. The only key factors are there were dogs and mismanagement involved. There are some dogs out there that are so dangerous that no management is fool proof enough to protect society around them, which is why I would be fascinated for a timeline or Bamms life, but there are few dogs like that and few dogs that you cannot provoke a bite in one way or another. The majority of dogs exist in the will likely bite with at level at some point in their life, it's the owners responsibility to prevent or lessen the severity of this probability.

This is true.

I agree it is true, for me it wouldn't matter, *I still failed to protect the dog I agreed to take care off and I would not be ok with it, no matter the circumstances. This is only for dogs that have been known to bite. My current dogs one would have to punch hard for one of them to cause any serious damage, none have ever so much as snapped at us for any reason, let alone bitten one of us.

Not going to say much as most has already been said, but I had to put in my two cents on the rescue/sanctuary idea.

IMO there are VERY few rescues/sanctuaries that keep dogs with issues for years that I would consider more humane than euthanasia with the dog's owner present. Sure, the dog's physical needs are met, but if they can't be safely handled by volunteers and they have underlying anxiety issues, long term confinement can be mentally hellacious for these dogs.