Those that show

I was reading Puppydog's thread about how to lose at a dog show, and the last line made me wonder.

We've all said not all judges are good at picking the best dog/s to win. We've all heard people say that "My dog was a better example of the breed compared to so and so, but for some reason the judge didn't pick my dog" So has anyone here ever placed (or won) during a show when you clearly saw there was a dog better than your own? What did you do? Did you take the win?

Just curious after reading that thread.

No, not really. I've seen some cases where Beau and another dog were pretty much equal in terms of quality and it really just depended on judge preferences (their 'type' was very different but both were to standard) He was the only dog that Beau ever lost to in his class. And the other dogs we were up against for BOB were well known specials who were gorgeous. So it never bothered me when he lost, honestly. I always felt like the specials deserved BOB.

That is a very good question! It has got me thinking. If I thought another dog was better then Travis (sadly, that happens a lot) I don't think I would hand the win back. After all, the judge is more qualified then me

It is a moral dilema though. Travs type is not my favorite. I MUCH prefer the more sturdy, coated English lines. Travis is a gorgeous dog, very petite and has a lovely colouring. His head worries me though, I don't really like it. Ben was so much prettier.

I actually prefer Trav's type, honestly.

Yep, I know. It is amazing how a dog can be 100% to standard but yet of such a different type. Don't get me wrong, he is a beautiful boy. I just like the blockier heads.

If you felt your dog was not the best when entering the ring then why would you even continue if you weren't going to "take the win"? I've never ever heard of anyone not accepting a placement that has been awarded.

It's all about the judges opinion. People can and do disagree with their choices all the time lol! Judge "A" may beleive movement is a more important quality than type where judge "B" puts more importance on type.

Jennifer
Tailcreek Mastiffs - English Mastiff breeders in Alberta Canada - Home

I personally wouldn't show a dog that I didn't plan (or at least hope) to win with. Some people with low entry breeds will 'stack' the shows (i.e. enter poor quality or older dogs) to ensure there are enough points for their 'good' dog to win. Granted the winning dog may be a wonderful specimen, but it doesn't really count (to me) if you're beating your own 'leftovers'.

Here is my opinion:

Winning does not a great dog/bitch make. I've seen judges put up some cardigans that make me flinch when I see them move. Clunky and horrid looking! And ONE special looked like a pembroke mix- not that Pemmies are bad, but they're NOT cardigans!

I've seen judges put up some dogs because they're big and pretty with out thought to structure while the "nicer" dogs go over looked because perhaps they are smaller or not as flashy.

It's subjective, because judges are people and therefore falliable.

Anyway, My mom one time showed a bitch that was really out of coat. I mean... REALLY out of coat. Mom took her in to get her the practice. She was up against some really nice bitch from up north who was in coat and moved like a dream.

The judge put up mom's bitch because she preferred a keeshond bitch with little coat over one with too much coat.

BTW- in keeshonden, there's no such thing as "too much coat." You can have a bad coat, but never too much.

So, in that case the bitch that should have gone up did not.

I don't really have a point with this answer I just realized... but if you can find one let me know LOL

Romeo only has a couple of points, and I never personally showed him. I think hes a beautiful chi and really does have a lovely personality

but in our conformation class and in practice rings, he really doesnt shine like he does in other situations. So even tho I think the other chis might not be as pretty as him, I can tell they love what they are doing more and really shine.. and I think they deserve to win.

Also, we do our conformation class for fun... he is really NOT the type of chi that many judges like. Some judges LOVE HIM, they have come to see the class and just adore him.
Others think his head isn't domed enough and his snout isn't long enough.. it happens.

^^This.

Rocket is my "type" of Doberman, and a very nice one at that. I have yet to see another Doberman at a show that I say "That dog is nicer than Rocket." Granted, my showing experience is limited, but I always think Rocket is the nicest dog, even with his faults.

It just depends on the judge that day. I'd never refuse a placement - it's hard enough being an owner handler in a professional handler world, and that judge thought you were worthy that day. I'd take it and run!

You got it, Noodle!!!!! :hail:

Yes.

In obedience.

Both Ares and Morgan won that day, Ares in open, Morgan in novice. In both classes I really felt there had been better performances. Ares' win I understood though. One of the dogs that performed better did NQ on the group stays and the other had to be double commanded for the figure 8, when the handler stepped off and the dog remained sitting. But outside of the double command, that dog's heeling was far better than Ares. Unfortunately the rules call for a double command to be a major point deduction.

Morgan's win?? I have no clue. She put in one of her all time worst qualifying performances. They both trialed under the same judge though, and I suspect the judge had a thing for corgis.

What did I do? I took my win, I looked absolutely shocked, and I bought my dog a cheeseburger.

It is a balancing act, sometimes you get a gift and sometimes you get ripped off. The most important part of it is knowing which one is which

And there is no difference between a poor winner and a poor loser, just behaving badly for different reasons, imo.

Exactly. Just like any sport, you should be a good winner AND a good loser. You never know who is watching, and gossip spreads like wildfire.

I should have clarified - sorry. I don't see anything wrong with taking the win, even if it wasn't the best choice by the judge. hehe.

This is kind of a different subject, but since someone brought it up...

Not every dog is perfect, so I'm confused by some of the responses. If every dog was perfect, then there would be no reason to show? Those that show, do you feel your dog is always the best?

Thanks for the response.

Well of course Harper is the best!!!!! Who is saying otherwise??? :rofl1:

Just teasing. Even though Harper is less then 6 months, when I look at her and when I look at the dogs that are currently winning... for me there is no contest.

Then again, for me structure is everything and winning doesn't = what is best, unfortunately.

For ex- look at Chows- straight angulation all around and that squished and over wrinkled face does not equal IMHO what is "good" for the breed.

Some judges put up what is "trendy" like in keeshonden, the teddy bear heads, which though are not standard, are winning in the ring. Keesies are supposed to have a foxy face, not a tedddy bear face.

So, while I personally think Harper is an excellent bitch (though a bit leggy) she will probably lose against lower bitches b/c that is what wins.

Personally, I'd rather have a cardigan that can do agility and keep up with me on hikes and herd live stock, and IMHO some of the cardigans coming out today are just not built to do that.

Harper is technically w/i standard, but that doesn't really make a difference to judges. They just want clunky, long and low.

IMHO- Harper is good for the breed b/c she's not extreme. Will judges see it like that? Probably not!

No but its hard to tell when you send in entries if your dog is going to be right on the money and show for all hes worth or if hes going to be off a bit due to what ever. So you suck it up and show them anyway.
As far as getting a win when we didn't deserve it, nope it has not happened. Usually if we don't/didn't get the win. There have been times when I have been surprised at the win, but thats mainly because I was not expecting it for some reason or another.

Just for the record, Aesop's breeder (as well as his sire's breeder) have done well with the not so squished face or lowrider looking dogs. But it does, indeed, depend on the judging.

Other than that, I have no input as I don't do conformation

You also have to understand that, for the most part, people aren't bringing trash dogs to dogs shows. People don't just enter their puppy mill/byb dogs. I have seen that happen, but not often. The dogs in the ring are all considered show prospects, they were picked by breeders, or breed mentors as dogs that were likely to finish.

Every dog has a fault and its up to the judge to determine how serious the faults are. It does have some to do with ring trends. If you have a ring full of dog who have high tail-sets, as a judge, you can decide if thats serious enough to withhold ribbons/points. If the dogs have enough good virtues, (and usually they do) then the judge will weigh the other faults/virtues against the standard.

In some breeds coat faults are serious (toy breeds, some terriers, puli, komondor, etc) in my breed coats aren't usually judged as harshly. Now, if I was a judge, and I saw a trend of breeders breeding dogs with open coats/incorrect textured coats etc, I might start making it a point to stop putting those dogs up altogether even if they had other good virtues. When you allow something to go for so long, you can't get it back.

I have never honestly felt like I lost and didn't deserve to lose. I might have wanted to win, or thought my dog performed better or had less severe faults than the winner. I understand that conformation is ALL perspective though. I don't take losses personally.

Yes, I do. It's part of my mentality - if you don't think you're the best (or have the best dog), then I don't feel like I have a chance. It's kind of like giving yourself a pep talk when you're nervous. It's how I try to exude confidence, and in doing so, it helps steady Rocket, so he can show the best he can that day. Most of the time I go into the ring and remind myself that yes, Rocket is a fabulous dog in my eyes. But now is the time to really make him shine, and if he doesn't go home a winner that day, there's always another show.

I know all of Rocket's faults. I know he's not perfect. But I can also look at my competition and see their good attributes, so I know what I have to minimize when I'm showing Rocket.