Why crop ears?

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Manchesters

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I Would Strongly Suggest......

That those poor unlucky people with bite trained dog check out the laws of their states, and also their home owners insurance (unless you are poor like I, and have to leave the Lord in charge of home protection!). Many years ago we had a top Naval Attorney (ret.) who had a large practice in dog bite cases.

For instance, if you are mugged by an unarmed person, you are guilty of excessive force if your attack trained dog injures that person.
So make sure that you are only assaulted by someone carrying a gun!

In the majority of states and counties nowadays, if you KNOW your dog will bite, or if it is trained to bite, it must be muzzled either at all times or whenever it is off your property. And must be kept in a secure pen when outside in your yard.

Anyone whose dog bites another person for ANY reason can rest assured they will be sued. And so you all need to triple check the laws in your area concerning dog bites. It would be interesting if some would post the laws in their areas, too.

Florida is a strict liability state, which means it does not matter what someone does.....you will be brought up in front of a judge! The law states that "the owner of any domestic animal will be held in strict liability for any damage to real or personal property."

Mr. Murphy, the Navy Atty. also told us that if someone breaks into your home and trips over your coffee table, you are liable for their medical expenses!!!!!! Boy, THAT pisses me off! Bloody perps have more rights than us poor citizens!!! Gggrrrrrrrr.

I personally would never let anyone know what type of training my dogs do or do not have!
 

Doberluv

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Excellent post Manchesters. You are so right. It pisses me off too how the laws protect these creeps. But that's the way it is. In fact, if you put a sign on your house or fence that indicates that you are aware that your dog is a guard dog and it bites soemone, you're in deep doo doo. Signs like "beware of dog" or "guard dog on duty." Big liability. You're acknowledging that your dog is dangerous and that you're aware of it. Signs that say more ambiguous things like "I can reach this fence in 3 seconds, can you?" are not acknowledging anything but the dog can run fast to the fence. There are some tricky legal things out there.

My homeowner's insurance company sent me a renewal type questionaire and asked if I had any new dogs to which I answerd in the affirmative. What breed? Doberman. Any bite history? No. I answer truthfully because it would not behove me if I lied and something happened.

I don't know what the laws are in this state about Schutzhund trained dogs. It could be that they like that, the fact that there is some degree of control over the dog. I can see plusses and minuses to that. But again....in the case of the breed that I have, he is much better off without specific protection training, in my case anyhow.


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Wow that was a long thread to read....everything I would have said has already been said so I will keep my mouth shut other than to say my girl is cropped and docked and I wouldnt have it any other way if it were "MY" choice. But if I was looking to adopt or rescue another Dobie I would consider a natural eared dog without hesitation. Regardless of what their ears or tails look like they are still a great Dog breed and the only dog I would own.

My 2 year old Dobe girl is the nicest dog you want to meet, if introduced properly she loves all people and other dogs. But if put into a situation where she has to protect either myself, my family or "her" property I have no doubt that her natural instincts would be enough to protect. She has been through OB training but nothing else related to protection or bite work, I am very confident that if the need were to arise she would be able to take care of herself and us if need be.

DA
Your girl sounds wonderful. And you know what most of us Dobe owners know. I am with you on the rescue dogs. If I ever rescued a dog, I wouldn't care if it was cropped. I do prefer the look but there's a whole helluva lot more to Dobes than their looks. For me too.....Dobes are here to stay after having so many breeds over the years, I can't believe how much I've come to love this breed.
 
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stirder

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in 26 years I have lived in 5 different states, each one my family had home owners insurance through state farm. this is the first home I have owned, the others were my parents homes (dad worked for south western bell and got moved a few times). the 4 houses they owned, my dad mentioned to the insurance agent that we had a dog or two trained in schutzhund and asked if we needed a policy to cover dog bites etc. each time they said no. when my wife and I baught this house we asked the same thing. they said "no, dog bites are covered by the policy you are signing up for" she then asked if it was trained in anything and we told her schutzhund (in training) and our policy cost was lowered by 6.5% a year. I cant comment on how most states enforce it but missouri, oklahoma, texas, and arkansas didnt charge extra. louisiana charged less because of schutzhund training. so deffinetly look into it in your state, and check more than one insurance agency. I have no idea but if we had gone with another agency I might have had to go with a large dog bite policy.
 

BigDog2191

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Here's my $0.02 on cropped ears:

If I see it, I don't get angry about it but then again: I won't readily make money to do it. If I've got some, the price is right, the vet's got a good rep, then sure, why not make my dog look a little more elegant? That's just my personal opinion.

But I have nothing against letting them have natural ears and looks.

Like someone said, it improves airflow in the ears and because of that it's much harder for the dog to attain an ear infection.

I don't think it's cruel. And it's something done as a baby, they barely remember it. I don't think the dogs are sitting there plotting revenge on the owner- holding a grudge, chances are they don't care.

In my opinion, it improves the look on some breeds. But if I'm at PetsMart and I see a beautiful Doberman with ears cropped--my blood won't boil, I won't go and jump on them.

And if I see, a Doberman walk by with his ears not cropped, same thing- I'm not going to throw a fit about it. The only time I'll do it is if like I mentioned in the 1st paragraph is, if I've got some money, the price is right, the vet's got a good rep, then sure.

I'd except my breed of dog anyway, but I mean cropped ears don't bother me... I guess you could say I'm pretty neutral about it.
 

BigDog2191

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Doberluv said:
I understand what you're saying Stirder, but I can almost be sure....if my Doberman were to go into Schutzhund training, that still wouldn't be a sure fire way of testing him. He's so smart, that he'd probably know this wasn't the real thing and maybe he wouldn't bite. It's a different thing when something is really happening with real emotions and fear coming off the dog's owner and something that isn't real, but a simulation. This breed is highly, highly keyed into it's owner's mood as well as the actual situation. He can tell when someone is a threat and when someone isn't. It's uncanny.

For dogs who don't have these "psycic" abilities, I can see where training is needed. My dog has understood when I was wrestling or play fighting with someone. My daughter and I practice our karate sometimes for fun....sparring etc. He is not perturbed in the least. I've done the same with a guy friend. Again...Lyric knew it wasn't a real fight. He watched, and in fact, came to have a closer look. LOL. But didn't react other than that. However, when things have happended that were more of a potential threat, he's gotten very serious. No, I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt if he'd follow through and attack/bite someone. That has never come up. But according to his breed standard and description, if he is of proper and correct Doberman temperament, then he won't back down in the face of an attack. I think he has good temperament. He's a lovely dog and he comes out of the top Doberman in the country (several times over) (Repo Man) and from a top breeder who got top breeder of the year award. She's been breeding for over 40 years and has had some excellent dogs and some famous old time dogs from way back in the lines. This does not ensure all, but it probaby helps. That is why we have these discussions about reputable breeding...it is important to maintain proper temperament, health and structure.

There have been many, many countless stories over time where scads of Dobermans have protected and fought for their masters. They have not all had Schutzhund training. This is well documented and known about this breed. It's a moot point to say that some will not. Of course, some will not. They're not all of correct temperament. And I don't know that a test is really a test, if you know what I mean. The proof is in the pudding. LOL.
I've never understood this sort of thing. A dog is supposed to KNOW you're feeling scared and want to take care of you and defend you, right? Well, what if he doesn't.

I mean, I've gotten scared before and there was no reaction from Rocky, really.
 

wildwings811

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Strider- first off I just want to say you said that it is not in the standard for terriers to get their ears cropped and neither is it in any of the other dogs standards as has been stated thoroughout this forum It is a preference

But by chance have you looked in the AKC book of breeds lately??? Did you notice that the dog that is pictured for the AM. Staff has cropped ears???? take a look it is not hard to see and the standard states

Ears: cropped or uncropped

And by the way I have not recieved any email address for those supposed Doberman breeders that are trying to eradicate the cropping of Dobermans

I also would like to add that my current Dobe who is a rescue is docked/ cropped but when it comes to rescues it is not a concern for natural or not a Doberman is a Doberman and I love the breed period but my preference is to have a docked tail and cropped ears it "makes" the breed and if given the choice I would chose a docked and cropped Dobie over a natural one any day

As for the natural instincts of the Doberman mine has had no training other than obedience and agility but he knows when I need to be protected and when I don't it is a natural instinct that is bred into the breed

And to totally catch up our homeowners insurance which is farmers added a 25% onto our homeowners insurnace because we own a Dobe eventhough he has no bite history and I contacted a local attorney and he said even if you dog has a bite history it is a big no no to put up Beware of dog signs or any other info saying that you know you dog may or will bite

I can hardly believe Stirder that your homeowners agent gave you a discount for having a schutzhund trained dog
 
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stirder

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well, if you dont beleive it call state farm, call a branch in northern louisiana, but honestly I cant say that I care wether you beleive me or not...has no effect on my life.
 
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renee, Ive only worked with one fila. that was 6-7 years ago and I only played the role of agitator one time with her. I had been hit by gsd's, dobes, rotts, and pit bulls...fila hit almost as hard as all of them put together, full mouth bite, jaws like a hydroulic press. impressive dogs for sure!! but I imagine they are no different, some may not have the temperament without training you wont know.
You're right about not knowing for certain, that's why there is a special TT for Filas. For instance, my Buffy was an exceptionally hard Fila. She took a 2 1/2 foot steel bar away from a 6'5" 380 pound man when she was just over 6 months old. He didn't listen when Charley told him to let him put Buffy up before he got out of the truck to pick up the tractor. She didn't hurt him, just took the 'weapon' and scared the bejeebers out of him! Shiva, on the other hand, doesn't have as hard a temperament (daddy was a Brazillian show dog . . .) and is beginning to come into her temperament finally at almost 2 years of age and is gaining self-confidence at an alarming rate. Kharma takes after her auntie/half sister Buffy. One big plus, though, is they were bred to catch and hold when dealing with humans, not to maim or kill without reason.

Testing, or first hand experience, are really the only ways to know for sure. Every dog is different - even littermates can differ greatly in temperament.
 
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BigDog2191 said:
I've never understood this sort of thing. A dog is supposed to KNOW you're feeling scared and want to take care of you and defend you, right? Well, what if he doesn't.

I mean, I've gotten scared before and there was no reaction from Rocky, really.
Rocky is still a pup, DoggyDaddy, and is still depending on you for guidance. If you think about it, that's a good thing because it gives you a chance to teach him about what is dangerous and what isn't.

Another thing to remember is that sometimes your dog will know there is no danger because of his keener senses. I always follow my dogs' lead on that sort of thing. If they're not worried, I'm not worried :)
 

BigDog2191

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Renee750il said:
Rocky is still a pup, DoggyDaddy, and is still depending on you for guidance. If you think about it, that's a good thing because it gives you a chance to teach him about what is dangerous and what isn't.

Another thing to remember is that sometimes your dog will know there is no danger because of his keener senses. I always follow my dogs' lead on that sort of thing. If they're not worried, I'm not worried :)
How do I teach him that? My friend is deathly scared of dogs and Rocky was barking at him like he was a threat, yet when I feel threatened, he approaches it as if it were nothing.
 

wildwings811

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Give Rocky a chance he will figure it out Renee is right he is still a pup and he is looking up to you for guidence but one day he will surprise you if the need ever arises he will stand up in your defence
 

BigDog2191

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I hope so.

I heard that 90% of the time if a dog is not trained to attack--like Schutzhund--it won't. I don't have money for that-- and I even tried looking for a club but couldn't find one.
 

wildwings811

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Let me tell you somthing my Rocky (LOL isnt that funny) has not been trained for any kind of attack he is only trained in obedience and agility but he will gaurd me if he knows that it is needed

I was home one night and I live on 40 acres in the boonies and these guys came flying up our driveway drunker than a barrel of skunks and got out of their truck and came up to the door now usually Rocky will not even bark when someone knocks on the door but this time he was to the door before the guys outside were and his hair was standing up on his back when they knocked he started bouncing off the door and showing his teeth in the window and they just kept on pounding on the door so I answered it and I really think they meant to harm me that night (I know I was really stupid for opening the door) but Rocky got out and chased them all back to their truck and down the driveway and I think he would have ripped them all a new a** h**** if they wouldn't have run so fast

I always thought what a great gaurd dog you are until that night now I am very confident in the fact that if anyone meant me any harm my Rocko would come to my rescue :)
 
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stirder

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I dont remember how old you said rocky is, but he is still a pup. most likely (though it could be something else) he is not fully comprehending his instincts, senses or whatever you want to call it. basically he is a teenager...when he senses your friends fear he over reacts and considers him a threat, when you think someone or something is a threat he probably knows it isnt and is trying to reassure you. give it time and just try to show him that your friend is NOT a threat, and praise him when he shows you that something isnt a threat. now of course if your friend is holding a gun and he growls and/or barks that is a different story, same as if he thinks there is no threat when you know without a doubt it is a threat. but with time, patience and guidance he will figure it out.
as for schutzhund, its not about training aggression. it is obedience first and foremost, and equal parts tracking and protection/bite work. the bite work is about teaching the dog confidence as well as when and where (where on the bad guy) to bite. it is a whole lot more than that but that is the basic/general explanation. as has been said before, it varies from dog to dog within the same breed, and within the same litter...and schutzhund is also not a garauntee, it just raises the odds (depending on the dog it could raise them exponentially, or just a little bit) that a dog will follow through with an attack. what I mean by follow through is for example: say strider has had NO schutzhund training and someone breaks into my house with intent to harm me and/or my wife. I would have no doubt that he would bark, growl, snarl, sling slobber all over the house and jump against the door or window the bad guy was coming through. (most cases by my understanding, this will not only scare away the bad guy but also make them wet their pants). but say the guy is not scared off and comes through anyway, most likely I would expect him to bite the guy and fight him. but if the guy fights back, punches, kicks, knees, bites, stabs, shoots or otherwise hurts strider during the fight...I dont know if he would continue to fight.
considering he is being trained in schutzhund, has great drive and great bite work, I think he would continue to fight but as was mentioned earlier "the proof is in the pudding". schutzhund is a simulation, not a real life scenario. am I sure it raises the odds in many cases? absolutely. am I sure even my last dog, with sch III title and a bite that cracked the fiberglass in-sleeve of the bite sleeve twice, would have continued to fight after being injured? I dont know for sure because it never happened, but I would GUESS the odds were extremely high that he would have.
I cant say for certain that wildwings's dog would have followed through if the drunks had harmed rocky. only wildwings can say how likely he thinks those odds would have been. if thats good enough for him/her then I trust that opinion. I can only speak for my dogs.
the closest any of my dogs have ever come to the hypothetical scenario I described above was when I was 16, maybe 17. there had been a rash of break ins in our rural subdivision in chesterfield missouri. by rural I mean the smallest acreage in the neighborhood was 4 acres, there were many properties that were not built on and at the time I think there were maybe 20? houses total. our property was right next door to somewhere in the neighborhood of a few thousand acres (have to ask my dad to know for sure, probably 1,000 but to a teenage boy it seemed like 10,000) owned by st albans. they now have a country club, golf course and subdivision but the land next to ours http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=4&S=8&Z=15&X=13942&Y=85514&W=3&qs=|chesterfield|mo| (that was our house, the land behind the house is part of st albans. if you want to you can type in 1308 top of the hill drive chesterfield missouri. thats the address) is still woods and fields used for their shooting club (clay pigeons and cage shoots which are when they release pheasant, guail etc and shoot them as they fly). the nearest gast station was a 15-20 minute drive.
anyway...atleast 5 houses had been broken into. small items were stollen and larger expensive items were broken, such as big screen tv's. one night around 11 pm we were waiting for a mare (died less than a year later due to collic, after 2 surgeries removed over 12 feet of intestine) to foal (give birth). my brothers fiance was at our house waiting with us when we saw headlights approaching, sit still, then shut off. it wasnt uncommon for teenagers to come into our subdivision to make out and more so we didnt expect anything but went with flashlights to check it out. the car was only about 100 yards from our house but when we got to it, it was empty. dad sent my brother back to the house to call the police and the other two houses on our street to let them know.
dad and me (and my german shepherd) stayed by the car waiting for whoever it was to come back, while we shined (shone?) our flashlights into the pasture searching for movement. dad called out "we have called the cops so you might as well come out." after a few minutes he called out "you have 5 seconds to come out before my son sends out his dog who will attack you unless he tells him not too." he started counting and I started getting nervous, I was young and this was more excitement than I anticipated. well...when he got to 1 I gave him the command to search and hold. he slid under the fence and made a bee-line about 50? feet into the tall grass and started barking and growling. suddenly a dark figure stood up and ran. tanker leapt and grabbed his right arm, held him on the ground untill I got up there ( a few scared paces behind my dad) and told him to release, but not to heel. he stood over the guy and didnt move. he ended up being a 20 year old boyfriend of a neighbour. it was early march and still really cold, I think it snowed really early the next morning, so he had several layers on including a thick coat and he wasnt hurt. he admitted to the cop who showed up about 30 minutes later, that he and a few friends (2 were hiding across the far fence of the pasture) were the ones who had broken into the other houses and that they had tried to break into our house a few nights before and a 4th friend had hurt his foot when he tried to kick in our basement door. they were coming back to tear up our stuff as pay back. when his parents found out about everything and called us, my dad of course was thinking "lawsuit lawsuit, oh sh**!!" but they thanked us for not hurting him, for not pressing charges for tresspassing, and apologized for the trouble. they even offered to pay for the broken door frame, which dad declined either to be nice or because he was just so happy they didnt want to sue us.
if this guy had faught back, or hurt tanker I dont know if he would have followed through or not. luckily we didnt find out and I hope I never have to with strider or any future dogs. but it WAS his intense schutzhund obedience training under stress that made him so obedient in this situation.
 
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stirder

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about the link I posted to the ariel photo website...try searching for your house. I looked up my in laws houses, my families homes, and some friends homes. most had a photo available but some photos were so old that there were no homes in the subdivisions yet. my house doesnt even have a picture, house is less than 2 years old and my address is "couldnt find" on all the mapguest type sites. nobody can find my house lol.
 
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That's cool, thanks for the link! i never knew that there were pictures of almost everywhere, although most of the dates i got were from about 10 years ago and all black and white.
 
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yeah, me too. one of our neighbors was a retired ariel photographer/surveyor when we lived there. he gave us an ariel photo of our house once, before it looked the way it does in that picture. my brother schedules maintenance for american airlines in tulsa and someone he worked with (probably has nothing to do with his job, the site I mean) sent him that link and he found our house, emailed it to me.
by the way, the trampoline behind the house is new, the white fence inside the other one to the left of the redish roofed barn is new, and all of the greyish areas that are gravel are new. also if you lok behind/below the house there are 2 grey squares. the one closest to the house was my brother meauw/mew/meuw? whatever...his hawk enclosure. the farther one was our chicken coupe.
and if you want a visual for the story I told about the guy my dog held down. they parked their car just to the right of the cedar tree that is to the right of the house, next to the road at the corner of the fence. the guy he grabbed was about half way across the field. the other 2 guys were just inside the woods where you can see kind of a dark curved line. that is an old wagon trail that we turned into a horse trail. its kind of a ravine in some places and in places it is almost 8 feet deep, about 6-10 feet wide. and if you click the west button a couple of times you will see the missouri river. we could ride to the river bluffs/cliffs in about 15-20 minutes. if you go south west a few times from my old house you will eventually come to the st albans country club golf course, after passing by the shooting clubs fields.
sorry, I know this whole post was way off topic.
 
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stirder

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and here is the house we moved into in 1997 in krum texas, which is 5 minutes west of denton texas, which is 20 minutes-4 hours (depending on traffic) north of dallas.
 

Doberluv

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How do I teach him that?
Socialization, socialization and more socialization. I hope you started right away when you got him. Keep it up. Saturate him with meeting new people, new dogs, new enviornments, new objects, different places and areas, city sidewalks, elevators, electric doors, noisy shopping carts in parking lots, grates in the pavement, different surfaces, everything you can possibly think of. Get that dog unafraid of anything and everything. Get him to understand that friendly strangers are a good thing. They give out treats and are nice. Make every experience pleasant and unfrightening. This is how a dog learns to recognize the difference between normal and abnormal, safe and threatening, friendly strangers and strangers who are up to no good. That, along with their instincts and what they were bred to do.
 

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