Another sad Pit Story

Actually, I have owned Terriers. Independent little cusses - but some of my favorite critters. Filas are infinitely more self-determined than any Terrier though.

Did I not say there was plenty of blame to go around? My point about the way the owner dispatched the dog is that it says a great deal about what kind of dog owner he was to begin with - someone who should only have one of those robotic dogs.

i don't think he even deserves that. I was thinking, that in my lifetime, if the sun was about to blow up or something, rather than waiting to persih and burn, i was thinking of suicide, (im not suicidal don't worry) but i didnt know how, like, i love life, i dont want to die and if i had to, i want it to be pretty painless, i would NEVER be able to shoot myself, if i had to kill myself, i would probably sneak into a vet clinic and euthinize myself.

I know all that sounds very morbid but i don't want to burn to death, hopefully i will be long gone before i have to even think about that... again

I believe all dogs, of all breeds, are born as basically good. We warp them and twist them sometimes intentionally and sometimes not. Then we find it convenient to blame them. No dog is born evil. No dog should be shot for actions it commited due to it's owners ignorance.

exactly, nothing is born evil, whether we shape their behaviour like that intentionally or not, as far as i have seen, it is usually the carers fault

Saying that there's plenty of blame to go around is, in my experience, usually a way of avoiding laying blame where it belongs. I think the owner was to blame too, but it's a little evasive to say that there was fault on both sides, since this board (like most dog-centric places) focuses almost entirely on human error.

We are the humans in the equation, and regardless of where the blame lies, the responsibility lies completely with us.

I think you'll find, as you get to know me better, that I tend to choose my words carefully, following the advice of the March Hare to Alice:

"Then you should say what you mean," the March Hare went on.

"I do," Alice hastily replied; "at least I mean what I say that's the same thing, you know."

"Not the same thing a bit!" said the Hatter. "Why, you might just as well say that `I see what I eat' is the same thing as `I eat what I see'!" -- Lewis Carroll

There's no such thing as a "bad" dog. A dog is the sum of its experiences and instincts, not a human being with such concepts as malicious intent and such.

Gotta admit, Bridey, a couple of mine were completely capable of doing things with 'malice aforethought' and it wasn't because they were taught to act that way. I just had to be aware of the propensity and make sure I kept on top of things - it was good mental exercise trying to stay ahead sometimes - especially with Buffy, who took premeditation to a whole new level . . . Let's just say the meter reader still talks about her - and he works in a different county now and tells the guys he works with that there are NO scary dogs on any other routes . . . One thing Buffy did for him - she cured him of his fear of dogs! It was my responsibility, though, to make sure she understood the inhibitions about actually biting . . . and I did put her up when he came to read the meter. He came to understand the dynamic of dealing with her the day she trotted quietly down the drive without barking. She sat down demurely - under the meter on the milk house and the poor guy thought she had decided to be friends and started to get out of the truck. I was flying down the driveway and yelled at him to get back in the truck. He stood there for a second, but when I yelled to him the second time he looked back at Buffy and got back in the truck. She lunged just as he closed the door . . . She was trying to sucker him away from the safety of the truck so she could terrorize him . . . He never, ever forgot that lesson, lol! And neither did I!

Hmm. Not in my experience, but there is always that one dog that teaches you new things and changes your mind on all your old ideas. Then again, I don't think this pit bull just thought "Hmm, a kid, you know what? I think i might just break my collar and mosey on over there and rip her to pieces"

Buffy definitely was never the typical dog, lol! She knew exactly what she was doing. She was a completely different creature on a leash or off of her own property (if she had to bring in some runaway cows) - I could take her anywhere and she was totally reliable.

I doubt that went through the Pit's mind at all, either. An attack like that is most often the result of conditioning and criminally poor ownership - with some tragically irresponsible breeding thrown into the mix, and the whole chain of events is usually sparked by more than one thing at that given moment.

The worst owners seem to be attracted to the dogs with the worst temperament traits.

I agree totally. I really dislike this kind of thing, giving a bad name to so many breeds.
It's the reason i can't take german shepherds or dobes to the parties i perform at, much as i love them both.

It's a shame, too, especially since kids and German Shepherds are just so fascinated with each other on such a basic level.

it really gets to me when some person can attack and murder 30 people and get life in gaol, but a dog snaps and they loose their life, when usually this is learnt or triggered behaviour

Doesn't seem very just, does it?

yeah, i like you renee, your smart

So there's no such thing as a good dog, either? I find that position very hard to respect. They're not humans, but they certainly can have malicious intent. Unless you believe that all dog attacks are total accidents, that the dog was just running and jumping and happened to hit another dog or person with his teeth Their grasp on the future is more limited than ours, and I don't think a dog plans months in advance to avenge himself on some annoying kid or neighbor dog, but I certainly think they can make short-term plans. I've seen one dog set up his own excuse for biting by dropping a toy in the middle of a hallway, and then roaring out to 'defend' it from an unwitting passerby, and another dog who created a similar situation by dropping kibble - the one thing she was allowed to guard - in a neat line around the first floor of a house so that when the new family cat came downstairs, she could chase her 'away from her kibble' ie, back upstairs.

That's where our responsibility comes into play. It's up to us to draw the line and teach our dogs that those kinds of stunts just won't cut it.

Or, a bad owner can either allow the behaviour to continue or even encourage it.

It's up to us to determine how much we allow our dogs to get by with.

Yes, I do get your point.

If the dog is allowed to engage in such behaviours without consequence, it has learned that it can! Thus such behaviour becomes experience.

But what you were saying earlier was that there are no bad dogs, only dogs who have learned what they can get away with. We're not debating whether dogs are instinctual or intelligent, we're arguing if they can be held to moral account when they act violently. I believe that no matter how at fault, to blame or responsible the owner is for a dog getting free to hurt or kill, the dog ultimately had the choice to go or stop. A dog who choses to go should get no pity, he's a disgrace to his race and a danger to ours.