J's Crew

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RD

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#21
So, how does grade 1 DJD affect the dog if not with lameness? If the dog has no problems with the joint, then what makes it such a huge problem? Granted, I don't know the heritability of the disease so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Of course, J's, you want to avoid health problems. If I had a Border Collie with DJD I wouldn't breed her either, because the physical requirements of this breed's work is extremely strenuous and requires a very sound dog. But, I also will compromise or disregard the breed's appearance standard because my priority is a good worker, and I won't cast out a dog because of cow hocks or a short upper arm if the dog does the job well. A lot of people would look down on me for that. You can't please everyone.

But I guess what I'm saying is that it's up to the breeder to judge the merits and flaws of their dog, and choose to breed or spay accordingly. You've never seen Redyre's bitch, the only thing you know of her is the health records, pedigree and photos you've seen. Awfully presumptuous to say whether or not a dog you've never met is worthy of breeding.

An outsider's perspective: to eliminate all potential breeding animals because of DJD would be extremely detrimental to the Rottweiler breed. According to the OFA site, nearly 40% of Rottweilers have DJD. Do you want to toss out half the gene pool? How is that helping the breed? You do realize that a high coefficient of inbreeding (which it will eventually come to with people breeding only show dogs, only dogs free of all health problems and only dogs that are titled) will cause mutations and bring more problems to the breed, even if you only breed dogs that are squeaky clean as far as health goes. This has happened in my breed too . . . Not in the working lines, but the show lines where there are a few dogs in every dog's pedigree, hundreds of times over. The gene pool is frighteningly narrow and a lot of breeders have predicted that the show Border Collie will only continue to go downhill as far as health goes. Right now there is an issue with CL in the Australian show lines, which dominate the American ring. And these breeders didn't want working BCs in their lines because they're unhealthy mongrels! lol.

Anyway, I don't want to fight and I hope you don't take offense, J's. :) I like talking about breeding and I find this interesting.
 
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#22
I have what I hope is a pertinent question. How common is DJD in Rottweilers? Is it difficult to find a dog that is completely clear of genetic defects? I understand that breeders now are probably having to work against the massive fad overbreeding that went on when the popularity spiked not that long ago, so some concessions probably need to be made. Also, how hard is it to find multi-BIS, multi-HIT, etc. Rottweilers? Is it harder to find an accomplished dog or a fully healthy dog?

Basically, why I'm asking is to ascertain how high-value this dog would be against what's available in the breed. Its easy enough for me to sit back and say that with my breed, I wouldn't breed to a DJD dog. But I also weigh that against how many APBTs are out there actually being worked/shown in more than weight pull and conformation. I would prefer not breeding a dog with a genetic defect, but again, how common is it? Is it better or worse than the average for the breed?
 
A

Angel Chicken

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#23
I'm sorry, but I have to back Red on this.

She loves her breed, and has been doing this for many, many years. I admire her for the work she does with them, and the training advice she has given many.

I'll admit, I know nothing about breeding. Nothing at all. I do know, however, that Red is nothing but the best in this biz, and I'd buy a pup from her ANY day!

This sounds to me like a personal attack that has come out of nowhere.

Think about it. Not all dogs are perfect, ya know?? I think it is HER decision to breed the dog, not yours or anyone else's.
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#25
Basically, why I'm asking is to ascertain how high-value this dog would be against what's available in the breed.
How many dogs in ANY breed finish multiple Championship titles, (UKC at 7 months of age in 4 shows with 3 Group placements) and win Best In Show (at 13 and 17 mos of age) and High In Trial (for the first 2 legs of her UKC CD, back to back) TWICE?

How many Rottweilers finish their AKC Championship titles exclusively owner handled by 25 months of age?

This bitch is pretty, smart, of correct temperament, dead sound, likes to work, and a hot shot guard if necessary. She has drive to work, is an excellent retriever, has strong herding instinct, and is rock solid in any social situation. How many dogs can you name off the top of your head in any breed that have it all?

That one elbow graded DJD1 by the OFA will in no way slow me down in breeding this bitch. IMO she has quite a bit to offer this breed.

I guess I will say it one more time.

I have no issue with breeding this bitch, who belongs to me.

Her breeder has no issue with her being bred.

The stud dog owners I have spoken to with regard to breeding her to their dogs (yes, I already have more than one breeding planned), have no issue with breeding her to their dogs.

The people who are waiting to purchase puppies from her have no issue with her being bred.

The ARC and their Code of Ethics, to which I ascribe, has no issue with her being bred.

Now, with all THAT being said:

Who else has ANY BUSINESS being concerned with whether I breed this bitch or NOT?

And finally, as usual, you miss the entire point, Melissa. This thread is continued from another one. I didn't start this business. But I'd like to think it is now FINISHED.
 
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#26
'Kay. Thanks for turning the questions back at me instead of just answering what I had asked. I guess I don't really care. Its not my breed.
 

J's crew

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#27
So, how does grade 1 DJD affect the dog if not with lameness? If the dog has no problems with the joint, then what makes it such a huge problem? Granted, I don't know the heritability of the disease so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Of course, J's, you want to avoid health problems. If I had a Border Collie with DJD I wouldn't breed her either, because the physical requirements of this breed's work is extremely strenuous and requires a very sound dog. But, I also will compromise or disregard the breed's appearance standard because my priority is a good worker, and I won't cast out a dog because of cow hocks or a short upper arm if the dog does the job well. A lot of people would look down on me for that. You can't please everyone.

But I guess what I'm saying is that it's up to the breeder to judge the merits and flaws of their dog, and choose to breed or spay accordingly. You've never seen Redyre's bitch, the only thing you know of her is the health records, pedigree and photos you've seen. Awfully presumptuous to say whether or not a dog you've never met is worthy of breeding.

An outsider's perspective: to eliminate all potential breeding animals because of DJD would be extremely detrimental to the Rottweiler breed. According to the OFA site, nearly 40% of Rottweilers have DJD. Do you want to toss out half the gene pool? How is that helping the breed? You do realize that a high coefficient of inbreeding (which it will eventually come to with people breeding only show dogs, only dogs free of all health problems and only dogs that are titled) will cause mutations and bring more problems to the breed, even if you only breed dogs that are squeaky clean as far as health goes. This has happened in my breed too . . . Not in the working lines, but the show lines where there are a few dogs in every dog's pedigree, hundreds of times over. The gene pool is frighteningly narrow and a lot of breeders have predicted that the show Border Collie will only continue to go downhill as far as health goes. Right now there is an issue with CL in the Australian show lines, which dominate the American ring. And these breeders didn't want working BCs in their lines because they're unhealthy mongrels! lol.

Anyway, I don't want to fight and I hope you don't take offense, J's. :) I like talking about breeding and I find this interesting.
No offense taken at all RD. And this was never intended to be a personal attack.

Rottweilers are working dogs also as are BC's. They need excellent joints in order to do the many activities alot of Rottie owners are involved in.

My question is this, would anyone buy a pup with HD in the dam and the last couple of generations? Why are elbows different?

And, my opinion is from looking at her pedigree. I have even posted on her threads commenting on how nice looking Penny is, from what I have seen she has type, and temperament. But so do alot of Rottweilers, without DJD.
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#28
It's not directed at you, Bahama, but what this dog has accomplished is an open book.

YES I consider her in the upper 20% of her breed. YES it is HARD to find a dog that can accomplish working and breed titles without professional help who has all health clearances.

NO I am not willing to toss her out for one DJD elbow and start over with a new puppy that will also be an unknown until health testing is finished at 2 years of age who will also have a GREATER than 40% chance of having some degree of ED whether from normal parents or not.

I have enough guts and concern for my breed that I released her abnormal elbow results from OFA for the world to see. Go check out how many Rottweiler breedings are made with NO elbow number. It's a LOT. Anyone considering any puppy from a breeding I make will have no trouble finding the health screening, good bad or indifferent.

I have had it up to my eyeballs with people sniping at me from their armchairs about MY personal decision to breed MY personal bitch who is an OUTSTANDING specimen of her breed by ANYONE's standards, one elbow DJD1 or NOT.
 

bubbatd

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#29
I think it's time that both of you take this to PMing . It's going no where here --- except getting ugly .
 

J's crew

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#30
How many dogs in ANY breed finish multiple Championship titles, (UKC at 7 months of age in 4 shows with 3 Group placements) and win Best In Show (at 13 and 17 mos of age) and High In Trial (for the first 2 legs of her UKC CD, back to back) TWICE?

How many Rottweilers finish their AKC Championship titles exclusively owner handled by 25 months of age?

This bitch is pretty, smart, of correct temperament, dead sound, likes to work, and a hot shot guard if necessary. She has drive to work, is an excellent retriever, has strong herding instinct, and is rock solid in any social situation. How many dogs can you name off the top of your head in any breed that have it all?

That one elbow graded DJD1 by the OFA will in no way slow me down in breeding this bitch. IMO she has quite a bit to offer this breed.

I guess I will say it one more time.

I have no issue with breeding this bitch, who belongs to me.

Her breeder has no issue with her being bred.

The stud dog owners I have spoken to with regard to breeding her to their dogs (yes, I already have more than one breeding planned), have no issue with breeding her to their dogs.

The people who are waiting to purchase puppies from her have no issue with her being bred.

The ARC and their Code of Ethics, to which I ascribe, has no issue with her being bred.

Now, with all THAT being said:

Who else has ANY BUSINESS being concerned with whether I breed this bitch or NOT?

And finally, as usual, you miss the entire point, Melissa. This thread is continued from another one. I didn't start this business. But I'd like to think it is now FINISHED.
Why the hostility? :confused: If you are so certain you are making the correct choice then why are you so defensive?

I think breeding topics are a great way to educate people. Is that just me?
 

RD

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#32
Thanks, J's. I didn't interpret your posts as a personal attack, I was just hoping you wouldn't interpret mine that way. :) It's so hard to tell what people really mean over the internet so with touchy subjects I often feel the need to clarify.

My question is this, would anyone buy a pup with HD in the dam and the last couple of generations? Why are elbows different?
Personally, I wouldn't. But I'm not in Rottweilers. 40% of MY breed is not affected by DJD so it is very easy to find a dog without the condition. Even normal dogs can produce DJD offspring, no? What is the heritability of DJD? Do affected dogs consistently produce affected offspring or carriers, as it is with things like CEA? Because with hip dysplasia, most dogs in my breed ARE carriers of the disease.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable about cutting out half of the potential breeding animals in the breed over this issue. It seems more realistic to breed the best specimens possible and work through the existing health issue that plagues the breed, rather than cull them all affected dogs and greatly reduce the size of the gene pool.
 
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RedyreRottweilers

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#33
My final comment on this subject.

This entire topic, J's Crew, was not in any way started to educate someone. It was started to make sure everyone knew 2 things:

that I have never produced anything of merit as a breeder (fact)
And that I plan to breed my bitch who is DJD1 in one elbow according to OFA (also fact)

None of this is unknown information, however, you felt it was your duty to make this known and cause this discussion to run YET AGAIN on this board.

Had it been intended as an educational opportunity, it would have been couched in a much different manner than it has been.

Now, if you want to go start your own educational thread about Elbow Dysplasia in the Rottweiler breed, and why it is a good decision to remove any and all animals who don't pass all health testing from the gene pool, be my guest.

I'm done with this one. Do not PM me.
 
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whatszmatter

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#34
I don't always see things Red's way, I don't really care for Rott's myself. I like them, I just will probably never own one. I don't care for breeding with elbow DJD, which i know has many causes and not all that uncommon in large breeds.

I do know that Red does her homework, I can tell that she has very carefully thought this out. She doesn't hide behind a mask or make excuses. I love working dogs, I wish she had IPO or SchH titles, but that in no way means she doesn't work with her dogs and her breed. I can tell she loves and puts a ton of time in. I haven't heard anything negative about this dogs temperment, which is priority #1 in my book. I don't know much about DJD in rott's, but from what I've read in this thread, it appears minor DJD in one elbow isn't an automatic deal breaker.

I think this thread would be better served talking about djd in rott's in general rather than her breeding decision. One thing I can tell about Red is that she does her homework. Someone will always find reason or fault in a breeder's decision to breed, so that doesn't suprise me that someone has in this case.
 

RD

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#35
Well, Red, I'm sorry that I had questions not pertaining to you or your dogs directly. I was curious about the disease, I didn't know it would bother you. It won't happen again, but there's no need to snap at J's Crew who simply answered my questions. T'was my fault.
 

Gempress

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#36
My final comment on this subject.

This entire topic, J's Crew, was not in any way started to educate someone. It was started to make sure everyone knew 2 things:

that I have never produced anything of merit as a breeder (fact)
And that I plan to breed my bitch who is DJD1 in one elbow according to OFA (also fact)

None of this is unknown information, however, you felt it was your duty to make this known and cause this discussion to run YET AGAIN on this board.

Had it been intended as an educational opportunity, it would have been couched in a much different manner than it has been.

Now, if you want to go start your own educational thread about Elbow Dysplasia in the Rottweiler breed, and why it is a good decision to remove any and all animals who don't pass all health testing from the gene pool, be my guest.

I'm done with this one. Do not PM me.

So the whole point of this thread was to just tell people two bits of information without discussing anything? And if it's not unknown information, why is it such a big deal for J's Crew to have said it? :confused:

Please don't interpret this as an attack. I have absolutely no clue about rottie breeding. I was following this in the hopes that it would be educational. Now I'm just very confused.

J's Crew, do you mind starting a seperate thread? Or PMing me about it?
 

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#37
I have a question........and this IS NOT an attack, it is just a question that always comes to mind when I read/think/hear about a breeding.

And Red doesnt have to answer it, anyone can.

But Red states that if this breeding indeed does result in being a mistake years to come from now, then she would be the first to admit it.

Now tell me, does admitting it solve the problems?? In the mean time, while the breeder is admitting the problems, what is happening on the sidelines??Are the pups walking stiff shouldered and in pain? Are they having to be put down at a young age due to suffering?

I of course as everyone knows have had an accidental litter, and I wonder the same thing. What if? What if in one year, or two year time something genetic pops up in the pups?

I thankfully added in my contract that the pup would be bought back, and would be cared for by me if it were to have any medical problems caused by genetics. I would treat the dog, and make the proper decicion when the times comes.

But I hear this preached so darn much by so many people, then they turn around, do it and say "I'll be the first to admit" but what good does that do??

Again, no ditsing, just wondering.
 

MelissaCato

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#38
Hummmm

But Red states that if this breeding indeed does result in being a mistake years to come from now, then she would be the first to admit it.
Admitting it is easy to say. The pup's that are infected suffer from the program not the breeder. Through science and bio it's a fact Penny will produce over all more than 50% DJD1 in her young even with a "Perfect Stud". As my opinion it's better to keep her out of that gene pool. The new owners won't know either till tests at certain ages well after they are family.. just like RR did with Penny.... or a pop of the joint fetching a fast ball that the kids threw that leads to surgery or worse. How can you Guarantee Health when you don't breed it? I don't understand.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#39
RedRye,

I hope your breeding with Penny goes great. Be sure to keep us updated with pictures! Who are you breeding her too?

And ok now I must interject...

People who are not in the Rottie breed need to take a BIG 2 steps back. If you did research OFA you WOULD notice that the breed is almost half effected with DJD. Its a problem the breed is working on to fix, but its still a issue. Sure go ahead and look up my girl's OFA info ( still waiting to get her results) you will see her Dam and her sire both have *1* elbow that has DJD1. You can usually get a DJD1 on a Rottweiler from just general wear and tear of the body.... not saying its not genetic, but a DJD2 would worry me MUCH more than a DJD1. Would I breed a DJD1 in a elbow if my girl came back with one? I wouldn't hesisitate.

Before you all jump on red you need to take a step back and realize *most* of you are not in the breed, and it would be like saying Oh pug people shouldnt breed becaue they dont OFA at all! Same with bulldog people! Every breed has a issue that they must work with, and elbows are one for Rotties.

Stop attacking. She is going to do whats best for her dog, no matter what people on a internet board say. Good Luck Red.
 

ravennr

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#40
RedRye,

I hope your breeding with Penny goes great. Be sure to keep us updated with pictures! Who are you breeding her too?

And ok now I must interject...

People who are not in the Rottie breed need to take a BIG 2 steps back. If you did research OFA you WOULD notice that the breed is almost half effected with DJD. Its a problem the breed is working on to fix, but its still a issue. Sure go ahead and look up my girl's OFA info ( still waiting to get her results) you will see her Dam and her sire both have *1* elbow that has DJD1. You can usually get a DJD1 on a Rottweiler from just general wear and tear of the body.... not saying its not genetic, but a DJD2 would worry me MUCH more than a DJD1. Would I breed a DJD1 in a elbow if my girl came back with one? I wouldn't hesisitate.

Before you all jump on red you need to take a step back and realize *most* of you are not in the breed, and it would be like saying Oh pug people shouldnt breed becaue they dont OFA at all! Same with bulldog people! Every breed has a issue that they must work with, and elbows are one for Rotties.

Stop attacking. She is going to do whats best for her dog, no matter what people on a internet board say. Good Luck Red.
Good posting!
 
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