Good advice from a co-worker?

We have a 5 and 1/2 month old lab terrier mix puppy. My wife was talking to a co-worker about our ongoing play biting problem with the dog. The co-worker kind of put a fear into my wife. She said that you better get a firm grip on him now or he will continue to play bite when he grows up. The co-worker already has control of her pup. When her pup play bites, she yells "NO!" and points to the pup with her finger. Her pup immediately stops play biting.

I'm not sure about her advice. I always thought that the "Ouch! No bite." and walk away method is the best way and I still believe that. I think that one of our problems is that we don't consistently practice the Ouch, no bite method. Several times, my wife or son will shout "No bite" and then stare at the dog. I myself may be to blame because sometime I get a little rambunctious with the pup and allow some play biting. I would get on the floor and lift his front legs up by lifting him up by the chest. He would try to bite my hand and I would try to move my hand a little to make my hand harder to reach. Sometimes he gets my hand and sometimes he doesn't. The good news is that he has bite inhibition.

I'd appreciate your opinion on the co-worker's advice. Do we need to get less tolerant of the play biting. Should we be somewhat tolerant because of the pup's age?

Here's a link....similar to your situation, but perhaps not quite. I don't know if your puppy is doing all the same things....following you and biting or what. But I think you'll get the main gist.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42774

This kind of play is eliciting a bite response from your puppy. You're encouraging him, asking him to bite you. When you pull your hands back, just out of reach, you're turning your hands into play things and enticing him to grab at them. When you hold him up so he can't move, reflexively, he is biting to release himself from your grip....even if it is done in play. Then he gets yelled at, "NO!" This will not train your puppy. This kind of play will perpetuate and exasberate the problem.

He needs consistancy, you do need to get a handle on it. Being stern, scolding, attending to....will not teach him, but may in fact teach him to be nervous and fearful of you or other people if he's at all sensative. It can also go the other way where the dog is getting attention, just what he wants, even if it's not great attention. You're reinforcing the behavior, in other words.

He needs to be shown how it is acceptable to play with humans. No biting skin. One bite on the skin.....playtime over. But biting toys is fine and rewardable.

It is my opinion that teaching a dog a behavior in order to get a reward is much more effective than teaching a dog a behavior in order to avoid an aversive. Motiate and reward your dog. Set your dog up for success rather than setting him up to fail, which by the method of play, you've been inadvertantly doing. Rough housing too much or to a high degree such as this is not a good idea with dog-human interaction. Humans have incredibly sensative skin and dogs have incredibly sharp teeth, powerful jaws and instincts/drives which can go from play to prey. Everyone who interacts with him must be consistant and do the same thing.

No tolerance for biting human skin. This does not mean teaching by using aversives, sterness, harsh punishment. It does mean teaching the dog what kind of play gets him the payoff. Behaviors which get a payoff will be repeated. Behaviors which have NO payoff will extinguish with time and consistancy.

Please read this link carefully. TEACHING bite inhibition is important. Stopping all mouthing using aversives does not teach a puppy to inhibit the force of his bite, which can be VERY important in any incident where a dog may be inclined to bite later in life.

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt

I agree Red. Thanks for pointing that out. My posts are so cotton pickin long as it is, I left that out. When I say no tolerance for biting human skin, I mean biting...ouchie. I did that with my Doberman....very gentle and calm mouthing was reinforced. The slightest pressure or beginnings of pain was not. However, some pups think you're playing when you yelp. It works on some but not others. Anyhow, Lyric now can be invited to play and nuzzle my hands and he's ever so gentle. They do learn how to regualte their pressure this way. If he does get overly excited, he's still careful about his teeth for the most part. Thanks for posting that Red. It is important for a dog to know how to regulate his bite in case he ever does bite out of defense, he may do just enough to defend himself without going over board and causing serious damage.

I should add that my son is 11 and I think that my pup sees him as a playmate. My son is the target of most of the play biting. MY son is adding to the problem because he seems to be too lazy to walk away or leave the room. I told my son 50 times what to do but he just looks at the pup and shouts "no bite". To my son's defense, when the play biting continues for too long, my son will put him in his playpen.

.

But a dog is incapable of understanding that "too long" isn't acceptable. "Too long" is a complex human thought process.....a concept of time and time related to this activity. This is a concept a dog is incapable of possessing. Either playing like that is acceptable or it isn't. So when he is allowed to play this roughly, is reinforced for it by continuing to play with him until an undetermined time frame ("too long"), then punished for what he was just told was OK or put away in a pen..... this is confusing to the dog, will not teach him and will make him neurotic. Shouting at a pup will not only not teach him what behavior to do, it will intensify his excitement level. Calmness lowers the intensity of a dog's actions. High pitched, loud, quick, fast....exasberates hyper activity.

When Cesar Milan promotes calmness to slow a dog down, he's absolutely right. That's one thing I can agree with about his methods. There might be one or two other things......not many, but some.

That Shirley Chong article is great. Dirk, I hope you read it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with getting rambunctious with your dog, playing tug, or any other "bite inducing" activity as long as your dog knows his boundaries. Herschel is 9 months old and we play fight all the time, but as soon as I say "ouch" he sits and waits for me to say OK and resume play. (We taught him by completely ending play if he bit us at all)

He also knows the command "gentle", so if he is meeting a smaller dog or getting too carried away while he's playing, we just say "Herschel, gentle" and he knows that if he isn't gentle, all play will end.

It sounds like your son is hurting your training. Each time that your dog bites and your son continues playing, he reinforces it as something positive. (Bite = more play)

Your son is 11 years old--tell him that he can't interact with the dog until he is respectful and helps with training. Is he the target of the play biting because he starts the play, or does your dog walk over to him and nip at him?

Herschel, the difference here in how you can play roughly with your dog is that he HAS had the training. You've already done the work and done a great job with your dog and he knows the game rules. This puppy sounds out of control (he is getting older so it needs to be dealt with properly) and he should probably forego the rough housing until he learns cues to "out" and learns bite inhibition at lower levels of arousal first before getting him this worked up. Tug of war is great, but again, rules need to be learned first, like "give" or "out" and no biting human skin or grabbing the toy out of the owner's hand etc.

Exercise, discipline (teaching) and affection in that order. Cesar Milan. LOL. You'd think I'm a fan. I'm not. But I kind of like that. Affection, attention when the dog is behaving how you like. But first he needs exercise to get the pent up energy out so he can be receptive to his teacher. He needs lessons in how to behave....to be taught, shown (not intimidated or forced as CM tends to depend on), but lessons using motivation, reward and setting the dog up to succeed....showing him. Then he gets the things he likes for giving a correct response or behaving "properly," according to human ways, not dog ways.

Herschel, sometimes my son gets the pup going and other time my son would be watching TV and the pup will come up to him bow, play bite his ankles and bark. Sometimes my son will get up and walk around the room to get away and the pup will follow him around and nip at his ankles. Luckily, the biting isn't too hard.

I absolutely agree.

Before inducing play biting behavior, the dog should be trained to know the boundaries.

Commands that I think would be most valuable to Dirk for this issue:

-Gentle
-Leave it/Take it
-Drop
-Down/stay

Thanks to all for the advice!