Food Intolerance- Gluten, Casein, Soy, and corn

DogtorJ

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#1
Hi Everyone,

My name is John (John B. Symes, DVM), otherwise known as "DogtorJ" on the Internet. I have joined this forum to share some very important information with you. I have been doing medical research (both veterinary and human) for the past 5 years following my personal diagnosis of celiac disease (gluten intolerance). My subsequent recovery from a myriad of symptoms was nothing short of miraculous. BUT, the cool thing was that almost everything I learned also applied to my four-legged friends. Wait 'til you hear about some of the miraculous recoveries that have occurred from simply removing certain items from the diet. The bad news is that some of the "bad guys" are the very staples of their (and our) diet.

I will be posting a series of thread dealing with various health issues that are directly tied to food intolerance and the subsequent damage done to the intestinal tract by the gluten grains (wheat, barley, and rye), casein (from cow's milk), soy (errrrh), and corn. This is not theory but rather very important information with which I have become intimately familiar due to my own medical condition and the 5 years of research that I have done on the subject.

During my reading on celiac disease, I suddenly remembered about the Irish setter...the only breed that had been definitively diagnosed as gluten intolerant...and went to review its typical medical conditions. Bingo- a match for the problems that celiac humans suffer from. BUT, the interesting thing was that they matched those of the Dachshund, Golden retriever, German shepherd, Lab, Rottie, and other breeds that are having big trouble medically.

I immediately began taking all of my patients off of wheat and barley, the two main gluten grains in pet foods. As I learned that casein (from cow's milk), soy, and corn could all do the same harm to the intestinal villi that gluten did, I started taking all patients off of those food ingredients as well. Wow! The miracles started happening.

The response to the elimination diet- avoiding the gluten grains (wheat, barley, rye), cow's milk products (with casein), soy (errrrrh), and corn- has been nothing less than phenomenal. I am a million percent convinced that gluten intolerance (as well as casein, soy, and corn intolerance) all occur in the dog and cat, with certain breeds being severely afflicted. In fact, I have recently heard that a well-known veterinary pathologist has reopened the books on celiac disease in dogs. It is long overdue.

Again, the Irish setter was found to be a celiac years ago (in our medical texts) and serves as the poster child. But where did all of the Irish setters go??? Well, that's what happens when you give wheat to a celiac. They become very ill and often die prematurely. If we examine the "genetic" disorders of the Irish setter, we see that they were a "who's who" of what goes wrong in just about all breeds....and people. Yes, the immune-mediated food intolerances have their hands in just about everything.

Once we see the damage that they do to the duodenum AND we are finally told what the duodenum actually does, then we can all have the "revelation" that I had and write so much about on my Website. It has all become second nature to me now, as it has to some of you. I find it soooo hard to believe that everyone doesn't already know and completely understand this, especially doctors, veterinarians, and the pet food companies.

BUT, therein lies the rub. As I have written for years, I have yet to casually meet a doctor or veterinarian who has been able to tell me what the duodenum absorbs. I am NOT throwing stones here because I did not know either until I studied my own, new found friend...celiac disease. THEN, the world of medicine became my oyster and things started falling into place like the pieces of a big puzzle. (Sorry for the mixed metaphor :) )

The duodenum not only does not absorb "nothing", as I have been told in conversation with colleagues and doctors, but it is responsible for the vast majority of the absorption of our calcium, iodine, iron, B complex, C, and trace minerals like zinc, boron, magnesium, chromium, and more. Wow! Man, does that explain much???

For example, now anyone can see why the most food allergic dogs (the breeds listed above) have the worst juvenile bone diseases, immune-mediated diseases, and highest cancer rates. Two of the most food allergic breeds...the Cocker and Shi Tzu...hold the record for blowing discs in their back at ONE YEAR of age. That is 3 years sooner tha the average Dachshund. This should be a no-brainer for those who understand how our skeleton is made (calcium, vitamin c, "COLLAGEN"). And the cancer? Well, what drives the health and integrity of our immune systems? How about thyroid problems? Yep...where is the iodine absorbed ? Did you know that some hypothyroid dogs get better on iodine supplements alone? Now you know why, right?

As I like to say, "This is not rocket science. If it were, we would KNOW this stuff. We have landers on the moon, Mars, and now on Titan...a moon of Saturn. And yet, we still don't know what the duodenum absorbs or that it is crazy to artificially reduce a fever caused by a virus? Hmmm...". Yes, if what I write about was rocket science, we would understand all of this. Its a matter of priorities, right?

And the epilepsy stuff...WOW!!! What a cool thing. I read early on in my celiac research that celiac kids who also had epilepsy often had dramatic improvements in their epilepsy when hey went gluten-free. That caught my attention "for some reason" and I jumped into that topic with both feet. My Website chronicles the journey and outlines the diet. Countless dogs (and people) have responded to this anti-seizures diet over the past 3-4 years. I just placed a new summary-style paper at the top of my epilepsy section. Hopefully, this will make sense to all of you. If not, as I am fond of saying, then I haven't done my job...yet.

I hope this helps. I am on a lot of forums now (both human and veterinary) so please feel free to Email me rather than wait for responses on forum posts. I will try to dedicate some time to this forum, however. Doxies are a great breed and one of my all-time fav's. I want to help keep them healthy and popular as a breed. And when you see how these vital food issues are affecting their health so negatively, I think you will agree that it is high time that we start taking things out of that big ol' recycle bin we call "genetics" and put them where they belong...in the preventable category. How cool is that?

John
 

Adrienne

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#2
Some excellent information, thank you. I feed my GSD a food that is free of wheat, soy, and corn and he is doing great on it. No pano to speak of at seven months, gaining weight like he should and all around healthy. I agree that what we put into our bodies as well as our pets has a huge impact on their health further down the line. I hope everyone here takes a glance at this and absorbs the information you have so kindly posted for us.

Thanks again!
 

DogtorJ

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Thank you, Adrienne. This is very important information and I am always happy to hear of someone that has recognized and already applied this. The vast majority out there have not, so you and I have a lot of work to do. :)

As it turns out, the German shepherd is one of THE poster children for this problem of the immune-mediated food intolerances to gluten, casein (cow's milk), soy, and corn. I "pick on" them in my first paper...the flagship paper for my site...called The Answer.http://dogtorj.tripod.com/id4.html. They are "the glaring example" of what can (and does) go wrong with a dog once this process starts taking place. You can almost superimpose their medical plight over that of the person with my condition, celiac disease (gluten intolerance).

The other trouble breedsa re the Lab, Golden retriever, Rottie, Dobie, Cocker, Shi Tzu, Poodle, and many more. The first to slip into obscurity was the Irish setter. Seen many of them recently??? They are the "only" dog in our texts KNOWN to have celiac disease. But, they are NOT the only ones, I am convinced. They were just the first in a long line of breeds to suffer under this horrific dominance of wheat-based diets. It is soooo clear in retrospect.

The bad news is that wheat is only one of the "big 4" (or the "four horsemen of the apocalypse" as I like to call them now), with the other riders being casein, soy, and corn. The threads that I am doing here should make this painfully clear. If not, readers can head to my site (below my sig) and read 'til they are conversant with this vital topic.

As always, if you or anyone has a question or comment, feel free to Emails me at [email protected].

Thanks again for your kind support,

John
 
M

Manchesters

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How many breeders work in association with you and report as they birth, and wean puppies? What types of dogs are involved? Have you researched Sight hounds, terriers, and other "garbage gut" breeds of dogs?

Thanks for your time!
 

DogtorJ

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#5
I don't work that closely with many breeders. I have three breeders of English bulldogs (very food allergic dogs) and one of Boston terriers that I see very regularly. My main technician now has raised and shown German shepherds most of her life so I see a lot of them. My previous technician of 7 years duration in California bred, raised,and showed Irish wolfhounds and Bernese Mountain dogs. So, I saw a lot of them.

But over the 26 years of practice, I have seen countless puppies from birth on, as you can imagine. The fact is that, when I graduated 26 years ago, the allergy lecture in school was just another lecture, not THE lecture. We had our trouble breeds...the Cocker, Poodle, German shepherd, West Highland White terrier, and a few others. Now, the Heinz 57 mutt from the shelter has serious allergies,immune-mediated diseases and cancer.

Yes, Sighthounds have their special problems and needs. That group is an interesting one, ranging in longevity of 6.7 years for the Irish wolfhound (thanks to bone cancer) to 16 plus years for the long-lived Greyhound. I love studying the different breeds 'cause it tells us so much about the role of "genetics" (and what doesn't really belong in that category) and what really happens in a breed that shortens their life. It all about the integrity of the immune system.

(I wish MDs studied veterinary medicine as much as I've studied human medicine. I think they would learn a phenomenal amount from reading about the breed-related disorders and that would really help them see the big picture.)

I'm not exactly sure what you were asking, Manchesters. If it was whether I thought some breeds were more afflicted by or more resistant to these food issues than others, I would have to say yes. But, the potential for problems is there with any simple- stomach animals (including fish and birds).

Hope this helps,
John
 

Bucket

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#6
Great post
Thanks

I have a Shepherd that has EPI and IBD. I have eliminated Soy,Wheat,Corn,Rye,Oats,Barley. Were feeding her just a Protein and Rice. She has had great improvement since the change but I just may start feeding her Raw. She just can't seem to gain any weight.
 

DogtorJ

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#7
Bucket said:
Great post
Thanks

I have a Shepherd that has EPI and IBD. I have eliminated Soy,Wheat,Corn,Rye,Oats,Barley. Were feeding her just a Protein and Rice. She has had great improvement since the change but I just may start feeding her Raw. She just can't seem to gain any weight.
Have you considered the duck and potato diets? (IVD or Dick Van Patten). Check out this Labrador forum. I think the whole forum is going this route and/or raw. Many are doing a combination of the two to maintain weights.

Glad she is doing better.

John
 

Bucket

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I did try the Natural Balance for about 3 months. The girls were not thrilled with that so I did pick up a bag of the Duck & Potato. Both my dogs turned their nose up to it. I thought it would be a hit with them.

I'm not sure what the IVD is??

What are your thoughts on Raw? Would that not be a good diet for the Celiac disease?

Innova EVO is another consideration too. No Grains and from what I read you can mix raw in with it.
 

DogtorJ

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Hey Bucket,

The Innova Evo would be great IF they left the cottage cheese out. Dairy products are HIGH on the list of allergens for dogs. They would be number one if we had not taken all of the dairy out of dog food years ago (e.g. milk coated puppy/kitten chows). Wheat holds the number one spot now. But, dairy products are still way up there because of those dairy snacks given by owners (cheese, ice cream, etc), dog treats with cheese, and doggy bones with dairy and wheat. Also, Cottage cheese does contain casein, the main guy we are trying to get rid of.

Here is an interesting link for you:
http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?e...t.com/007800.html&d=96EE253C81&icp=1&.intl=us

The IVD is from Innovative Veterinary Diets. It is now marketed by Royal Canin, who just bought the IVD company a few months ago. I have had great success with this food, especially for epilepsy and most dogs really like it. One of the problems with the transition from one food to another is the true addiction they had to the old food, mainly if it contains any of the gluten grains (wheat, barley, rye). The IVD comes as duck, venison, rabbit, or white fish and potato. It comes canned and dry. I have found the dogs to like the venison and potato the best. The IVD has to be ordered through a vet at this point as far as I know.

Hope this helps,
John
 

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#10
not touching on the specifics of celiac/epilepsy, but just as a general observation: with all the food ingredients you warn people about - how come in your "food handout" you endorse so many foods made from poor quality ingredients, and those containing menadione?

don't you think it's just as important to feed something made from clean, good quality ingredients as it is to leave out the grains you oppose so much?

people can debate until the cows come home whether leaving out dairy/certain grains/whatever is good/bad, it won't ever apply to all animals exactly the same. but i think it's far more important to feed foods that are free (or as free as possible) of chemical stabilizers, antioxidants, preservatives, artificial vitamins and other harmful substances, so i really don't understand how you can endorse so many poor quality products.
 

DogtorJ

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I am the first to admit that the food handout needs some revision. I have been concentrating on the epilepsy and human issues so muc that it has been neglected. There are many new, high quality foods that have arisen over the past 3 years that I do not include.

BUT, this handout was made for the masses, not just for enlightened people like you. The sad fact is that the majority of dog owners won't buy food that they cannot get at the grocery store. The next group will travel to the pet shop but don't do it every time. The "elite" will do things like feed raw or home-cooked diets. I wish this weren't reality but it is. I live in my own little world but I work in the real world. :) So, I MUST include the grocery store foods...the lesser of the evils...for the general public. Most of my clients would not even think to get on the Internet to research this sort of thing. My lectures are often the first time they have ever heard that wheat and dairy could even possibly be a problem. That is the real world, I'm afraid.

Which foods are you saying are poor quality? Nutro? Purina? Iams? I am a firm beleiver that one of the main reasons one food is of a poorer quality than others is the amount of grains they use, not whether the chicken they use is better or vat they use is cleaner than the next guys. When a dog food starts out with wheat, barley, corn or soy as the main ingredients, you have a crummy food no matter what else follows those leading ingredients.

BUT many of these foods that individuals/breeders are perceiving as "high quality" have ingredients that I cannot recommend. This is very frustrating. Why Solid Gold, Wellness, Natura (Innova), and others would have the PERFECT dog food if...IF...they did not ruin it with a gluten grain (wheat, barley, rye) or some "lactose-free" dairy free product. This is very frustrating and the only way that I can see for them to change this is for the public to be aware of the potential dangers of these things and put pressure on these companies.

They seem to know that wheat, corn, and soy are bad but they obviously don't understand WHY they the main allergens. They clearly don't understand these immune-mediated food intolerances (or don't care. I won't be the judge of that). If they did understand (or care), they would not replace one gluten grain with another. And, they would not put ANY dairy products in these foods because these proteins are among the top food allergens.

The choice of the best food is a compromise in most cases at this point. I too wish the foods did not have any artificial ingredients... but they do. I am MUCH more concerned about the "big 4" than I am the antioxidants they use.

The menadione thing is being blown out of proportion in my opinion. I have researched this issue and it certainly appears that it takes MUCH more of the water soluble Ks to cause a problem than what is in dog food. The main thing is that the water soluble Ks NOT be given at therapeutic doses (by injection). The amount in pet food is most likely to be safe.

I would be very interested your opinion as to which foods on the list are such poor quality and why you think so. As I said, I am going to be rewriting much on that section. Thanks.

Hope this helps,

John
 
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#12
Mordy said:
don't you think it's just as important to feed something made from clean, good quality ingredients as it is to leave out the grains you oppose so much?

people can debate until the cows come home whether leaving out dairy/certain grains/whatever is good/bad, it won't ever apply to all animals exactly the same. but i think it's far more important to feed foods that are free (or as free as possible) of chemical stabilizers, antioxidants, preservatives, artificial vitamins and other harmful substances, so i really don't understand how you can endorse so many poor quality products.
I've always wondered if many of the reactions that our animals - and we - have to so many foods aren't really reactions to the combinations of those foods with the toxins they are produced and processed with, rather than simply reactions to the natural foods . . . I know when I was bodybuilding and eating "clean" I had no allergies to anything at all, not even pollens, molds or smoke . . .
 

DogtorJ

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#13
"Natural Foods"

The problem is that the "big 4" are not "natural" foods for humans. That is why they are the top 4 human, dog, and cat allergens.

#1 allergen is Cow's milk- The natural source of milk is goat milk and was for millennia. The goat was elevated into the heavens by the Greeks for the milk it gave. In the Biblical story, "the shepherds tended their FLOCKS by night", not their herds. Cattle were used for work, not milk. It was not until the mid second millennium that we went into the dairy industry using cows. This was a big mistake, it turns out. The casein in cow milk is the main culprit. It is casein that they make glue from. Who makes Elmer's glue? Borden. Whose picture is on the bottle? "Elsie" the cow. Hmmm... It is the casein that sticks to the intestinal vill, invoking the allergic response.

#2 is wheat. "Hey, they ate wheat in Biblical days." Partially correct. It was NOT the wheat we eat today. MAN created the wheat we eat today (common wheat) by blending two "weeds" (triticum species) with the original wheat and increased the gluten content tremendously, bringing celiac disease upon its developers. This is historical fact. The bread of Biblical days was dry and broke. When they said that they broke bread, they BROKE bread. Can you break a slice of our bread now? Only if its thoroughly toasted, right? The gluten is what makes it soft and spongy. The gluten content of "God's wheat" was 1-2 %. The gluten in our current wheat is up to 55% gluten. Wow!
The gluten is what does the harm to the gut, invoking the allergic response. The gluten grains are wheat, barley and rye so don't be fooled by their use in pet foods.

#3 is soy (errrrrh). They make super glue from soy. There's a big clue for you. Why has it taken us over 3000 years to decide to eat soy. Because our ancestors knew better. I will leave it to you guys to research the truth about soy. It is one of the worst possible things to put in your body. It will become the number one allergen is we allow it to. The health issues are huge myths and the damage it does to us...to our gut, thyroids, breasts (LOADED with estrogens) and the rest of our body is incredible. The truth about soy is right under our noses on the Internet. Do some research and you will see it right away. The glycoproteins in soy are incredibly "sticky" so it should be obvious why they adhere to the villi, do harm, and invoke the allergic response.

#4 is corn. Corn was another bad choice made by humans. It was never great for us but corn has been the target of genetic modification for years and years and years. WE have "hybrided" corn to death, with the recent Starlink/CRY9C scare being only the tip of the iceberg. If you put "corn gluten meal" you will see how it is used as a "natural" herbidicide. It KILLS other plants. No food that is good for you can claim that. Corn is also used to make industrial adhesives but the best they do is keep cardboard boxes together. And THAT is why it is number 4. Many people and pets tolerate corn. A growing number of children can't. Could it what we've done to corn over the past 20 years? Yes. Again, do a little research and you will see it.

So, you can see why I am as passionate about this as I am and why getting these OUT of the food takes presidence over the other things in food. Once the damage is done to gut (mainly the duodenum), then a cascade of events takes place. These villi are responsible for absorbing your calcium, iron, iodine, B complex, C, Zinc, Copper, and many other trace minerals. Our body can take this abuse for a while but not forever. Wit the "big 4", is is a matter of WHEN they do their harm, not IF they do it.

Please continue to think "naturally" but try notto get common mixed up with natural. 75% of the American Diet comes from wheat and dairy alone. So, these things are very common, but they are totally unnatural. Just look at the health of this nation. There is something woefully wrong, isn't there. I wish it were just the hydrogenated oils, sugar, aspartame, MSG, chemicals, preservatives, and the like. That would make it much easier to deal with. These are all serious problems and major contributors to our state of ill health. But the bad news is that it is NOT just these artificial, man-made things doing it. It is the very staples of our diet.

Hope this helps clear things up,
John
 
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#14
Why has it taken us over 3000 years to decide to eat soy. Because our ancestors knew better. I will leave it to you guys to research the truth about soy. It is one of the worst possible things to put in your body.
Not really accurate, unless you discount China . . .

We're just beginning to find 'scientific' dogma to back up what's been going on there for thousands of years . . .

Now, I really dislike the taste of milk, per se, and it doesn't usually agree with me at all, BUT if I stick to an organic, whole Jersey or predominantly Jersey milk, not only does it taste good, I have no problems with it. But I'm mainly of Irish ethnicity, and my ancient forebears were cattle farmers (and raiders, lol). Most of the people I know of mainly African heritage don't digest cattle products well at all, but they digest rices much more easily than I.

I have two types of dogs that are equally different. While Bimmer, the GSD/wolf needs more protein and prefers less fruit, vegetable and carbohydrate fuel, the two Filas, whose heritage goes back to a harsh existence that often included living and working on whatever food was available - often little or no meat - crave those very things.

Those are two examples at extreme ends of the spectrum, but what science neglects so often in its dogged pursuits is variables of historical import.\

But the bad news is that it is NOT just these artificial, man-made things doing it. It is the very staples of our diet.
My point was that the combination of the toxins with these foods may be more to blame, much in the same way that certain drugs will interact to enhance negative side effects.
 

DogtorJ

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#15
The soy myth

I totally agree and did not mean to say that you were wrong. That's why I responded without quoting you. It was meant to be general response, not one aimed directly at you.

The combination IS a killer. If our brain is unhealthy from the malabsorption of nutrients being created by the "big 4", then the aspartame, MSG, and other preservatives/drugs/chemicals/sugar/caffeine, etc that we bombard our brains with will have a greater effect. I have experienced this in my own life and hear about it regularly on the Net.

The main point I was trying to make is that we can eliminate all of the chemicals and stuff ans still not reach optimal wellness unless/until we address the food intolerance issues if they are afflicting us. The other point is that we can be certain that it is not just the artificial stuff that is causing us to react to our food as some have suggested to me in the past. The big 4 are unnatural themselves.

One more thing on the soy issue: You have or will read things about how much soy the Asians eat. I read not long ago that they eat more soy than all other animal proteins combines. This is totally false...a fabrication/misconception/deception or a lie, depending on how you want to look at it. The fact is that they eat very little soy, with the average being less than two tsp/person/day and much of that it is in the form of soy sauce. This can easily be proven by walking into any authentic Japanese/Chinese/Asian restaurant and looking at the menu. Where's all of the soy??? The menu is loaded with chicken, beef, seafood, raw fish, shellfish, etc. The soy is restricted to a little soy in your miso soup or soy sauce...UNLESS you are a vegetarian.

Yes, they have modified their menus to suit OUR needs...the rising number of vegetarians in this country. The Asian restaurants in this country have become Americanized to an extent. But I used to go to authentic Asian restaurants all of the time in Boston and they stuffed us with animal protein.

So who is purporting this soy-as-a-health-food myth? Again, I'll leave that to everyone's own research. I could write about this for hours. But look up "soy" in the Google search of www.mercola.com. Put "Weston A. Price Foundation" in your search and see what their mission statement is. Put "dangers of soy" and things like that in your search.

Even if the Asians DID eat a lot of soy, it would be the wrong conclusion to draw that this is what makes them healthier than Americans. The REALLY COOL thing is that, the reason they are healthier in general is that they don't eat the OTHER of the big 4...no cow milk, wheat, or corn in the NATIVE diets (unAmericanized). Back to the authentic restaurants...no cheese, no corn, and no wheat or gluten grains (yes,the have wheat noodles now, but that is a new/Americanized/convenience thing. Have you tried to prepare rice noodles much? Not too easy is it, compared to wheat pasta?)

This should make sense. I hope so. If not, please write to me.

John
 
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#16
I do use rice noodles quite often, although not as often as semolina pasta, as rice just doesn't work well with my system. On the other hand, semolina pasta isn't very good with Asian inspired dishes, lol.

There is a goodly portion of tofu in the cuisine in different regions of China, as well as utilization of edame beans, raw and cooked. One of the foundations of the 'old ways' is the principle of balance in all things. Which is, all things considered, perhaps the best advice for many things ;)

You know, now that you mention the westernized oriental restaurants, I had to go back and think, and I don't think I've ever eaten at an oriental restaurant that served wheat noodles, corn, or any appreciable dairy - with the exception of those wonderful crab rangoons. But I don't eat at ethnic restaurants that have 'Americans' running about the kitchen, lol!
 

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#17
DogtorJ said:
BUT, this handout was made for the masses, not just for enlightened people like you.
that is even worse - because people like me don't need a whole lot of education on what to feed our dogs (personally i don't feed commercial food anyway). "the masses" are who desperately needs to be educated that products like pedigree, purina and science diet et al are made from poor quality ingredients and should be avoided. yeah the "real world" is what we all have to work with, but if nobody brings the subject closer to people and tells them that food sold at grocery stores do not offer good, clean nutrition, people won't change their habits.

the only exclusion i want to make here are stores like for example whole foods, who has started carrying a number of pet food products that are of good quality, such as for example newman's own organic.

DogtorJ said:
So, I MUST include the grocery store foods...the lesser of the evils...for the general public.
the "lesser evil" of what? you can't get much lower than feeding grocery store brands and unless people refuse to buy them and tell the manufacturer why, things aren't going to change. just like going on with the horrible state of pollution isn't an option - people need to change and need to get used to the idea that it is more important to abandon convenience in favor of better health and higher quality of life.

DogtorJ said:
Which foods are you saying are poor quality? Nutro? Purina? Iams?
all of them actually, with nutro natural choice being the least offender but being quite expensive for the quality it offers, compared to real high-end foods.

DogtorJ said:
I am a firm beleiver that one of the main reasons one food is of a poorer quality than others is the amount of grains they use, not whether the chicken they use is better or vat they use is cleaner than the next guys.
i'm really saddened to hear that from a veterinarian, and especially from one so concerned with certain parts of nutrition as you are. so less grain overall is more important to you than good quality ingredients that aren't polluted by mold, synthetic stabilizers and preservatives and so on? in my eyes that's just substituting one aspect of poor quality for another and isn't going to be all that beneficial in the long run.

DogtorJ said:
When a dog food starts out with wheat, barley, corn or soy as the main ingredients, you have a crummy food no matter what else follows those leading ingredients.
you won't see me disagreeing on that one, but ingredients are listed by weight before processing, so once the food reaches its final moisture content, even in a food that lists a meat source as first ingredient it will slide down the list because it's going to lose about 3/4 of its weight in moisture. and even worse, if you see ingredients like "meat and bone meal" or "byproducts" instead of good quality meat protein, the overall amount can be higher, but the digestible part is not going to be any higher than that of a better quality food that may contain a little less.

taking nutro for example - the amounts of grain are insane. the food contains less than 30% meat overall, some specific formulations as little as 19%.

DogtorJ said:
BUT many of these foods that individuals/breeders are perceiving as "high quality" have ingredients that I cannot recommend. This is very frustrating. Why Solid Gold, Wellness, Natura (Innova), and others would have the PERFECT dog food if...IF...they did not ruin it with a gluten grain (wheat, barley, rye) or some "lactose-free" dairy free product. This is very frustrating and the only way that I can see for them to change this is for the public to be aware of the potential dangers of these things and put pressure on these companies.
you have to keep in mind that individuals differ and there are many dogs out there that don't have allergies or intoleraces even to foods that include barley or dairy products. yeah, they may rank fairly high on a list of possible allergens, but that doesn't mean every dog out there is automatically allergic to them. that's something people need tobe aware of.

i've included dairy products in my dogs' diets for 25 years now and never had a problem, ever. on the contrary, good quality cultured yogurt for example has been a beneficial addition for many dogs, and cottage cheese is generally well tolerated too.

i see more animals doing much better on foods like solid gold, wellness, natura foods etc. than on the poor quality ones, despite them including ingredients that you may not endorse for specific conditions - which doesn't mean they are bad for every dog out there.

DogtorJ said:
I am MUCH more concerned about the "big 4" than I am the antioxidants they use.
antioxidants are the least problem. you should spend some time researching documents like the federal meat inspection act etc., that tell you just what exactly happens to meat ingredients of poor quality, which are commonly used in cheap pet foods, mainly sold at grocery stores. anything not suitable for human consumption has to be dentatured, which is generally done by dousing with chemicals like fuel oil or crude carbolic acid - and these are not substances that just go away during the rendering or manufacturing process.

you elaborate on how air pollution is a big issue, but i think you are very much losing sight of how much pollution enters the body from poor quality food ingredients and unnecessary chemicals. once these are eliminated when someone feeds a better quality food, the difference is glaringly obvious.

i simply don't agree with replacing one aspect of poor nutrition with another.

DogtorJ said:
The menadione thing is being blown out of proportion in my opinion. I have researched this issue and it certainly appears that it takes MUCH more of the water soluble Ks to cause a problem than what is in dog food.
sadly that seems to be the point of view of the vast majority of U.S. veterinarians and feed industry people and i think exactly that is the reason why people aren't aware of the issue in northern america.

menadione has been linked to allergies and many other health issues not only in dogs but also in many other animals in europe. especially breeders of parakeets and other popular pet birds have seen a drop in certain diseases after eliminating menadione from "complete" bird feed.

i have gathered lots of material on the topic, but most of it is in german and i haven't had the time to translate it all, but i don't like it when i'm told that something "is most likely to be safe" instead of research being done to prove it is.

Renee750il said:
I've always wondered if many of the reactions that our animals - and we - have to so many foods aren't really reactions to the combinations of those foods with the toxins they are produced and processed with, rather than simply reactions to the natural foods .
i'm very much convinced of this. for me the fact that some dogs are allergic to ingredients X, Y and Z in a commercial food but don't have trouble if the same ingredient in a fresh form is used in a home prepared diet is proof enough.

DogtorJ said:
The problem is that the "big 4" are not "natural" foods for humans. That is why they are the top 4 human, dog, and cat allergens.
that still doesn't mean that those who are not allergic to them can't eat them. that's one fact that is overlooked all the time. obviously you will (hopefully) exclude anything from your/your dog's diet that isn't well tolerated, but it doesn't mean that if i tolerate it and eat it that it's going to kill me.

i'll leave the topic ofg "natural" vs. "unnatural" foods alone, since opinions on the topic differ too widely and it's not going to do any good arguing back and forth over it. the only thing i'd like to say on this is that it isn't "natural" to feed a dog dry food period, regardless which grain makes up the major part of any dry food. neither dogs not cats evolved to utilize grains period.

there are too many points of view on (mainly human) diet issues (vegetarian, vegan, those who claim that you should only eat raw, completely unprocessed foods, high protein/fat/low carb, low fat and so on and so on), yet over the years no single one has really proven to be more true than any other. neither do the countries where things like soy (think tofu), sticky (high-gluten) rice or corn are staples and eaten on a daily basis especially by poor people have higher incidences of health issues that could be traced back to these.
 

Fran27

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#18
Honestly, when I see your posts Dr, it would be the same as someone telling me not to eat cottage cheese because some people are allergic to cow milk. The fact is, I'm not. And I'll take a natural cottage cheese over pesticides and preservatives any day.
 

DogtorJ

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#19
The food intolernaces affect millions of people and countless pets. It is much more than a few people having allergies to milk.

You don't have to choose between cow milk and pesticides/preservatives You can (try to) avoid both. That would be the wisest thing if you have any signs of these conditions, don't you think?

Not everyone is affected by all 4 of the big 4 but staggering numbers of people are affected by at least one or a combination of the 4. Celiac researchers think that 1:30 people have celiac disease and don't know it. The official number at this time is 1:122 (Jihns Hopskins/Mayo). This is a HUGE change over just 5 years ago when they thought it was a "rare disorder affecting less than 1:5000 people.). Four years ago, the New England Journal of Medicine boldly stated that it was the most underdiagnosed condition in the country, affecting at least 1:250. So, The number of afflicted is getting larger and larger as the awareness increases. How high will it get???

We KNOW that this occurs in veterinary medicine. WE just have not had the same type of awareness...yet. It will be a HUGE issue in the near future.

The bad news is that wheat is only number two. Cow milk is the number one offender in humans. It used to be number one in pets, before we eliminated all dairy from dog and cat food and transitioned to wheat-based foods about 15 years ago when it slipped to number two behind wheat.

So, where is the logic in bringing it back? There is none. It is yet another HUGE mistake being made by the pet food industry. And the ones that are amking that mistake are the ones with the (perceived) highest quality kibble foods. That does not surprise me anymore but I won't go into detail as to why. Part of it is pure "ignorance"...lack of understanding. Enough time has passed that they have forgotten what milk was doing to our pets. (Just like how many doctors have forgotten the asthma-dairy connection.)

I hope that some of you that obviously know so much about dog food will put some pressure on these companies to make them change this. Our pets can't afford these kinds of mistakes. They are too ill already to bring back a "plague" like milk in their food. The other stuff is bad enough (the preservatives, chemicals etc. I'm NOT disagreeing that these things are bad. am simply stressing the vital importance of the food intolerances.)

Those who are worried about things like the menadione should also ask their pet food manufacturers where they are getting their canola oil. The EPA does not list canola and soybean oil as a PESTICIDE for no reason.
(http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_plant-oils.htm).

There is much more to learn, isn't there?

John
 

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