AKC conformation entry help?
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I thought there was an age restriction on Novice? Not sure, I don't look at that one. American bred is for well, American born dogs. AOH is for, if you are not a professional (been part of a pro handler association, or taken pay to handler dogs/passed out rate cards, etc) and you're handling your own dog. Open is the "catch all", if they don't fit in another category or you don't want them in one of the other options (some people have a stigma with AOH class, I'm not one of them entering in it exclusively because if you finish your dog from that class I guess you earn a special certificate and get invited to AKC/EUK, something like that). That's the basics that I know.
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How about AOH? or Novice? I would want to show with people at my own level. Here is info from the AKC web site.
Puppy - For dogs between six and twelve months of age, that are not yet champions (optional class).
Twelve-To-Eighteen Months - For dogs twelve to eighteen months of age, that are not yet champions (optional class).
Novice - For dogs six months of age and over, which have not, prior to the date of closing of entries, won three first prizes in the Novice Class, a first prize in Amateur-Owner Handler, Bred-by-Exhibitor, American-bred, or Open Classes, nor one or more points toward their championship (optional class).
Amateur-Owner-Handler – For dogs that are at least six months of age that are not champions. Dogs must be handled in the class by the registered owner of the dog and is limited to exhibitors who have not, at any point in time, been a professional dog handler, AKC approved conformation judge, or employed as an assistant to a professional handler (effective January 1, 2009) (optional class).
Bred By Exhibitor - For dogs that are exhibited by their owner and breeder, that are not yet champions (optional class).
American-Bred - For dogs born in the United States from a mating which took place in the United States, that are not yet champions (mandatory class).
Open - For any dog of the breed, at least 6 months of age (mandatory class).
After these classes are judged, all the dogs that won first place in a class compete again to see who is the best of the winning dogs. Males and females are judged separately. Only the best male (Winners Dog) and the best female (Winners Bitch) receive championship points. The Winners Dog and Winners Bitch then compete with the champions for the Best of Breed award. At the end of the Best of Breed Competition, three awards are usually given:
Puppy - For dogs between six and twelve months of age, that are not yet champions (optional class).
Twelve-To-Eighteen Months - For dogs twelve to eighteen months of age, that are not yet champions (optional class).
Novice - For dogs six months of age and over, which have not, prior to the date of closing of entries, won three first prizes in the Novice Class, a first prize in Amateur-Owner Handler, Bred-by-Exhibitor, American-bred, or Open Classes, nor one or more points toward their championship (optional class).
Amateur-Owner-Handler – For dogs that are at least six months of age that are not champions. Dogs must be handled in the class by the registered owner of the dog and is limited to exhibitors who have not, at any point in time, been a professional dog handler, AKC approved conformation judge, or employed as an assistant to a professional handler (effective January 1, 2009) (optional class).
Bred By Exhibitor - For dogs that are exhibited by their owner and breeder, that are not yet champions (optional class).
American-Bred - For dogs born in the United States from a mating which took place in the United States, that are not yet champions (mandatory class).
Open - For any dog of the breed, at least 6 months of age (mandatory class).
After these classes are judged, all the dogs that won first place in a class compete again to see who is the best of the winning dogs. Males and females are judged separately. Only the best male (Winners Dog) and the best female (Winners Bitch) receive championship points. The Winners Dog and Winners Bitch then compete with the champions for the Best of Breed award. At the end of the Best of Breed Competition, three awards are usually given:
I can't speak to Novice, since we usually don't have that class in dobes.
I would not do Amateur Owner Handler, especially not at the Sunflower Cluster. So that leaves Open and AmBred.
Is Logan bigger, smaller, or about the same size as the other male Smooths you usually show against? Open is where you usually see the mature, seasoned show dogs. In dobes, we generally use AmBred for smaller dogs, or dogs that are not as experienced in the show ring. Many handlers and breeders put dogs in AmBred if they already have a dog in Open. So it's sort of a catch-all class.
So you basically have to weigh the two classes against your dog and see what you're most comfortable with.
Pros of Open: You'll be showing in the "big boy" class and may be taken more seriously.
Cons of Open: There might be a really nice boy in Open that smokes you each day, and you don't even win your class.
Pros of AmBred: You may have a better chance of winning the class if Logan isn't as experienced as the other dogs entered, which gives you a better chance at being in Winners, and thus a better chance of getting WD.
Cons of AmBred: Some judges don't like giving AmBred dogs WD, or are at least less likely to. Some judges see Open and 12-18 as the competitive classes and like to pull their WD from Open or 12-18.
Of course, I'm looking at this through Doberman tinted glasses.
I would not do Amateur Owner Handler, especially not at the Sunflower Cluster. So that leaves Open and AmBred.
Is Logan bigger, smaller, or about the same size as the other male Smooths you usually show against? Open is where you usually see the mature, seasoned show dogs. In dobes, we generally use AmBred for smaller dogs, or dogs that are not as experienced in the show ring. Many handlers and breeders put dogs in AmBred if they already have a dog in Open. So it's sort of a catch-all class.
So you basically have to weigh the two classes against your dog and see what you're most comfortable with.
Pros of Open: You'll be showing in the "big boy" class and may be taken more seriously.
Cons of Open: There might be a really nice boy in Open that smokes you each day, and you don't even win your class.
Pros of AmBred: You may have a better chance of winning the class if Logan isn't as experienced as the other dogs entered, which gives you a better chance at being in Winners, and thus a better chance of getting WD.
Cons of AmBred: Some judges don't like giving AmBred dogs WD, or are at least less likely to. Some judges see Open and 12-18 as the competitive classes and like to pull their WD from Open or 12-18.
Of course, I'm looking at this through Doberman tinted glasses.
Why not?
Also, there's the AOH class, then the Owner-Handler competition which are apparently different and the OH competition is only held two of those days (but is free class, from what I gather).
This is my first time in AKC conformation, and Logan's first time in AKC in over 3 years (he showed as a baby with his breeder, he has 2 points). I've only done UKC conformation once, and aside from that absolutely nothing.
I have asked his breeder about it as well, just waiting to hear back. I've also asked her what I NEED to do for grooming, since UKC has the no-product-in-coat rule that makes grooming SUPER easy and AKC...doesn't :/
ETA: Size-wise he's at the very top of the standard. Not sure what the average male around here is. Never actually competed against another collie.
OH. How do AKC points work? UKC points are so simple, but AKC confuses me every time I read about it
Also, there's the AOH class, then the Owner-Handler competition which are apparently different and the OH competition is only held two of those days (but is free class, from what I gather).
This is my first time in AKC conformation, and Logan's first time in AKC in over 3 years (he showed as a baby with his breeder, he has 2 points). I've only done UKC conformation once, and aside from that absolutely nothing.
I have asked his breeder about it as well, just waiting to hear back. I've also asked her what I NEED to do for grooming, since UKC has the no-product-in-coat rule that makes grooming SUPER easy and AKC...doesn't :/
ETA: Size-wise he's at the very top of the standard. Not sure what the average male around here is. Never actually competed against another collie.
OH. How do AKC points work? UKC points are so simple, but AKC confuses me every time I read about it
My answers in bold!
Why not?
Also, there's the AOH class, then the Owner-Handler competition which are apparently different and the OH competition is only held two of those days (but is free class, from what I gather).
This is my first time in AKC conformation, and Logan's first time in AKC in over 3 years (he showed as a baby with his breeder, he has 2 points). I've only done UKC conformation once, and aside from that absolutely nothing.
You can if you want, but I've never seen judges take the class very seriously. I've always been warned away from it - "it's a waste of your entry fee" - but granted I show Dobermans, not Collies. I'm not sure how competitive Collies are. It may be different.... but in Dobes, you basically need to look as professional and experienced as you can. To quote Aryn... fake it 'til you make it.
I have asked his breeder about it as well, just waiting to hear back. I've also asked her what I NEED to do for grooming, since UKC has the no-product-in-coat rule that makes grooming SUPER easy and AKC...doesn't :/
I'm guessing Smooth Collies still get the works - kolesterol, chalk, etc. I think I know some folks with Smooths, want me to ask them? I know how to chalk dogs, but I obviously don't keep any on hand. So unless you have some, we may be out of luck unless I sweet-talk one of my handler friends into helping.
ETA: Size-wise he's at the very top of the standard. Not sure what the average male around here is. Never actually competed against another collie.
Hmm... if he's a bigger boy, Open might be a good class for him.
OH. How do AKC points work? UKC points are so simple, but AKC confuses me every time I read about it
I'm assuming you know the basics... 15 points to finish, including two majors of 3, 4, or 5 points.
Kansas is in Division 6, which means the point schedule for Smooth Collie dogs is:
2 - for 1 point, you need to beat one other dog. 2 = your dog + 1 other dog
4 - for 2 points, you need to beat 3 other dogs.
6 - for a 3 point major, you need to beat 5 other dogs
7 - for a 4 point major, you need to beat 6 other dogs
9 - for a 5 point major, you need to beat 8 other dogs.
Also, there's the AOH class, then the Owner-Handler competition which are apparently different and the OH competition is only held two of those days (but is free class, from what I gather).
This is my first time in AKC conformation, and Logan's first time in AKC in over 3 years (he showed as a baby with his breeder, he has 2 points). I've only done UKC conformation once, and aside from that absolutely nothing.
You can if you want, but I've never seen judges take the class very seriously. I've always been warned away from it - "it's a waste of your entry fee" - but granted I show Dobermans, not Collies. I'm not sure how competitive Collies are. It may be different.... but in Dobes, you basically need to look as professional and experienced as you can. To quote Aryn... fake it 'til you make it.
I have asked his breeder about it as well, just waiting to hear back. I've also asked her what I NEED to do for grooming, since UKC has the no-product-in-coat rule that makes grooming SUPER easy and AKC...doesn't :/
I'm guessing Smooth Collies still get the works - kolesterol, chalk, etc. I think I know some folks with Smooths, want me to ask them? I know how to chalk dogs, but I obviously don't keep any on hand. So unless you have some, we may be out of luck unless I sweet-talk one of my handler friends into helping.
ETA: Size-wise he's at the very top of the standard. Not sure what the average male around here is. Never actually competed against another collie.
Hmm... if he's a bigger boy, Open might be a good class for him.
OH. How do AKC points work? UKC points are so simple, but AKC confuses me every time I read about it
I'm assuming you know the basics... 15 points to finish, including two majors of 3, 4, or 5 points.
Kansas is in Division 6, which means the point schedule for Smooth Collie dogs is:
2 - for 1 point, you need to beat one other dog. 2 = your dog + 1 other dog
4 - for 2 points, you need to beat 3 other dogs.
6 - for a 3 point major, you need to beat 5 other dogs
7 - for a 4 point major, you need to beat 6 other dogs
9 - for a 5 point major, you need to beat 8 other dogs.
I'd just put him in open. Most people don't really use the amateur or novice classes for some reason. Smooth males aren't exactly super common so it's not like you'll be competing against 15 other dogs. Mel posted on facebook asking the many collie people who is going to enter that cluster, and all she knows so far is maybe one smooth female.
Also, the open males usually go into the ring first. It would be a good idea to show up early and watch the judge doing some other breeds to find out how that judge asks people to go around the ring, do their down and backs, etc. so that you get a feel for what they want.
Also, the open males usually go into the ring first. It would be a good idea to show up early and watch the judge doing some other breeds to find out how that judge asks people to go around the ring, do their down and backs, etc. so that you get a feel for what they want.
Smooth collie people do use chalk and kolesterol in coat. With Logan you probably don't need any chalk because he's a tri and has good pigment in his points, aside from maybe a little white chalk for his legs and feet. Mostly I see people using it on sables whose masks haven't come in all the way, or whose pigment is kind of washed out.
Some collie people clean up stray tan or white hairs on their dog's faces with a sharpie. Again, Logan may not need it. Mel shaves their whiskers off but not everybody does that. Definitely ask her. She trims up their feet really nice too. Honestly she can answer all your grooming questions because that's what she does professionally. She was the groomer for the #1 rough collie in the nation a few years back before he retired.
Some collie people clean up stray tan or white hairs on their dog's faces with a sharpie. Again, Logan may not need it. Mel shaves their whiskers off but not everybody does that. Definitely ask her. She trims up their feet really nice too. Honestly she can answer all your grooming questions because that's what she does professionally. She was the groomer for the #1 rough collie in the nation a few years back before he retired.
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What is this kolesterol? I did a google search and didn't come up with anything in English. I only show in Open Shows, so I just give my dog a nice bath, but if there's something else I can do, I'd like an edge.
Oh, nevermind, its chalk related. I'll go to some vendor's booths tomorrow and see what's available.
Oh, nevermind, its chalk related. I'll go to some vendor's booths tomorrow and see what's available.
Thanks Romy and Sizzle!
That's what I needed to know! I knew it was different depending on where you are, but I had no idea where to find that out.
I know Mel told me to cut his whiskers off before a show, and that's pretty simple. He doesn't have fuzzy feet, so I don't know if that needs anything done to them? His muzzle is starting to go grey a bit, so I kind of think he'd look funny if I chalked it and tried to make it look tan again. It's not VERY grey or anything, just enough you can tell he's a grown man
I have asked Mel what basics I need to do, and I know she's trying to find someone around here that's going with collies to help me groom, but I don't know if she'll have any luck finding anyone. She gave me a grooming run-down when I got him, but it was late, and it was 3 years ago, so I really doubt I can re-create it now. Plus his looks have changed (his colors are more bold now) so I don't know if it would even involve the same thing. I know there's someone in Tulsa that has collies that I've met at a few dog events now (ATTS test and Collie Nationals), but I can't remember her name or her kennel name to even begin to look her up, and I think she only had roughs.
It sounds like I'll stick him in Open and see what happens
That's what I needed to know! I knew it was different depending on where you are, but I had no idea where to find that out.
I know Mel told me to cut his whiskers off before a show, and that's pretty simple. He doesn't have fuzzy feet, so I don't know if that needs anything done to them? His muzzle is starting to go grey a bit, so I kind of think he'd look funny if I chalked it and tried to make it look tan again. It's not VERY grey or anything, just enough you can tell he's a grown man
I have asked Mel what basics I need to do, and I know she's trying to find someone around here that's going with collies to help me groom, but I don't know if she'll have any luck finding anyone. She gave me a grooming run-down when I got him, but it was late, and it was 3 years ago, so I really doubt I can re-create it now. Plus his looks have changed (his colors are more bold now) so I don't know if it would even involve the same thing. I know there's someone in Tulsa that has collies that I've met at a few dog events now (ATTS test and Collie Nationals), but I can't remember her name or her kennel name to even begin to look her up, and I think she only had roughs.
It sounds like I'll stick him in Open and see what happens
Haha, I spelled it wrong. -.-
Basically you just get your hands "damp" and massage it into their legs/feet. Then powder a bunch of chalk on. Mel usually lets it sit for a while and then brushes out all the loose chalk with a boar bristle brush.
Sael I wouldn't worry about doing anything to his face aside from shaving whiskers. I hate shaved whiskers, lol, but she insists it's necessary with collies because half the standard is their head and the whiskers interfere with showing off the shape and planes of everything. Since he's a tri he'll probably be fine without face chalk. There's some tricky color matching and painting that needs to be done with head chalking, otherwise they can look weird. lol. If she finds a mentor for you though, then that's awesome.
ETA: How are his ears doing? Do they stay boxed? If not, you'll probably want to keep gluing them for a while before the show. Loki's are really stubborn about standing up.
Basically you just get your hands "damp" and massage it into their legs/feet. Then powder a bunch of chalk on. Mel usually lets it sit for a while and then brushes out all the loose chalk with a boar bristle brush.
Sael I wouldn't worry about doing anything to his face aside from shaving whiskers. I hate shaved whiskers, lol, but she insists it's necessary with collies because half the standard is their head and the whiskers interfere with showing off the shape and planes of everything. Since he's a tri he'll probably be fine without face chalk. There's some tricky color matching and painting that needs to be done with head chalking, otherwise they can look weird. lol. If she finds a mentor for you though, then that's awesome.
ETA: How are his ears doing? Do they stay boxed? If not, you'll probably want to keep gluing them for a while before the show. Loki's are really stubborn about standing up.
Using product in the ring is illegal in AKC too it's just not enforced much. The ONLY time I have ever seen it enforced is when people have been actively caught dying their dog's coat color.
Hair spray, mouse, chalk, leave in conditioner is ALL against the rules but no one cares. I personally don't use any product in the ring and I have my reasons, but to each his own.
Hair spray, mouse, chalk, leave in conditioner is ALL against the rules but no one cares. I personally don't use any product in the ring and I have my reasons, but to each his own.
The right one is great most of the time. The left one is staying taped/glued I took the tape out for handling class last night and it stayed tipped all night, put it in again before bed. I found a way that's SUPER quick to put in/take out, so I feel like I can tape them after the show and take it out again the next morning without too much hassle. I do sheltie ear tape colored black with sharpie so I don't get 23678221 questions whenever I go to the store :rofl1: I tape the right one, too, but I'm not as strict about it since it pretty much lust stays nice.
I'd rather not use anything, but I still want to be competitive, and if everyone else is using it... :/ I want to go "naked" just because winning/finishing would mean more to me if it wasn't done artificially. But, he's also co-owned and I still don't know what I'm doing, so I'll follow his breeder's wishes. I absolutely LOVE that UKC enforces it. Then all I need to do is a bath and a blow out the night before and a good brushing the morning of.
I took the tape out for handling class last night and it stayed tipped all night, put it in again before bed. I found a way that's SUPER quick to put in/take out, so I feel like I can tape them after the show and take it out again the next morning without too much hassle. I do sheltie ear tape colored black with sharpie so I don't get 23678221 questions whenever I go to the store :rofl1: I tape the right one, too, but I'm not as strict about it since it pretty much lust stays nice.I'd rather not use anything, but I still want to be competitive, and if everyone else is using it... :/ I want to go "naked" just because winning/finishing would mean more to me if it wasn't done artificially. But, he's also co-owned and I still don't know what I'm doing, so I'll follow his breeder's wishes. I absolutely LOVE that UKC enforces it. Then all I need to do is a bath and a blow out the night before and a good brushing the morning of.
I have also heard from a cousin of mine who is a fairly well known collie breeder/professional handler that he has been in the ring competing against a dog who left white footprints in the ring and that the judge excused the dog because of that. My cousin's dog BTW was also full of products but it didn't come off in the ring.
His legs are still pretty white. I use horse whitening shampoo on him and Gavroche regularly. BUT, we are doing lure coursing the day before. And that usually means grass stains lol. So he may benefit from some touchup on his white.
One of my worries is that he's not as fluffy as most of the other smooths I've seen. But my understanding is that he's homozygous for smooth, whereas Loki and Jordan are heterozygous (obviously lol) which makes them fluffier, right? I mean, I prefer his coat to a fluffier one, but I don't know what judges prefer or if it even matters. I do try to fluff him up as much as possible when I blow dry him, but I'm also down my blow dryer now and I'm 99% sure I won't have it back in time. I can borrow the one from work, but it's not nearly as powerful.
One of my worries is that he's not as fluffy as most of the other smooths I've seen. But my understanding is that he's homozygous for smooth, whereas Loki and Jordan are heterozygous (obviously lol) which makes them fluffier, right? I mean, I prefer his coat to a fluffier one, but I don't know what judges prefer or if it even matters. I do try to fluff him up as much as possible when I blow dry him, but I'm also down my blow dryer now and I'm 99% sure I won't have it back in time. I can borrow the one from work, but it's not nearly as powerful.
