No means NO!

OK whyyyyyy do my dogs not listen when I tell them "no"??? My husband utters the word 'no' and they immediately jump to attention and obey. Now I know they they consider him the ultimate leader, but I deserve some respect too! I have tried ignoring them,time-outs, untattention, saying it very sternly, having a stare down contest, etc...I might as well be yelling at the rocks in the backyard b/c that is apparently who they think I am talking to. Examples of when I am telling them "no" jumping on me, doors, or window screens, taking things that aren't toys (remote)-even tho they have plenty to play with, barking or whining when we are eating, etc... I am a kindergarten teacher so this disobeying is REALLY getting on my nerves!!!!
any advice???

So your dogs like the remotes too, hmmm? We've been through two television remotes, the DVD remote and the one for the home theatre is still MIA.

It's Kharma.

I have the same problem with 'no' sometimes too. They are just so focused on what they're doing that it doesn't sink in, and I think Shiva and Kharma firmly subscribe to the theory that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. You may have to add a command that's the final word. When you use it, enforce it sternly by stopping and making them sit or lay down - even if you have to hold the collar and push down on their hindquarters like you do when you teach a pup to sit for the first time. Just be absolutely sure when you do it that you're going to carry through! You cannot, cannot let them get by with not performing or the jig is up - they won't ever take you seriously when you try to make them behave.

Mine know EXACTLY what a certain pair of words (last word - "it" lol) mean! You should see the groveling. You'd think I'd beaten them or something - my Drama Queens.
A lot of what you're describing sounds like they are craving more attention. Not that you're not already paying lots of attention to them - they just want more. And I'll bet you pay more attention to them than your husband does already, don't you? You probably feed them, tend to them, take them out most of the time, etc.

Saje posted a link on Debi's thread about Addie snapping at her that I thought really gave great insight and good advice. You might find it useful. I'll go look it up and post it here for you.

Here's Saje's link: http://www.k9deb.com/socialis.htm

Debi just checked in on that thread. She's using the technique with Addie and says it is working beautifully so far.

I would suggest that you put them through their basic obedience skills every day, using positive, fun methods, so that they work for reward, for the sheer fun, not out of fear and they will learn that you provide what they want, but they have to earn it. (treats/praise) Don't give them anything for free. They will start to look up to you more. Obedience training (the right way) = respect.

I've always envied Dobie owners their obedient dogs. Dobermans must be among the best at really, really wanting to do what you ask - as long as they respect you, as you pointed out.

Filas want to please you, but as a breed, of necessity since they often work without human supervision, they use their own judgement as well. Charley raised European line Dobermans for years, and sometimes he just has the most frustrating time with these girls. He's used to his dogs following his commands to the letter.

I think the Filas have been very good for him! A person can get too used to things going their way. . .

No means yes to my dog, but it's my own darn fault. I never picked up on it until this guy suggested I video tape myself with my dog. I was humiliated upon viewing it, and will NEVER let anyone see that tape, lol!

First off I found out that dogs will more likely follow a mans voice (I'm a woman) due to the voice being naturally lower. I know, unfair. Secondly, I was talking to my dog like a human, and making "no" into a question.

I would put down her food and say "Don't you want to come and eat, no?" The word "no" I would say in a high voice, as in a question. So to this day if I say "no" she thinks it means yes. But she does listen to "mother language". I can say sit till I'm blue in the face (I know I know, your only suppose to say a command once), but if I say "plant it" her butt will go down immediately.

Now when she's getting out of control I say "That's IT!" and my dog stops what ever action she was doing. It's all in the tone of the voice. I also try and make it lower (the tone) than how I normally speak. It works the other way too. If she doing something I like I use my high pitched voice, and she's almost instantly trained.

Then there are days when she just wants to see how much I love her, lol! Hope this helps.

I use the expression of "EH" or "AHH". Its hard to type or spell the exact sound I use, but it works! They know exactly what I mean and stop whatever they are doing.

I read somewhere that a lot of horse people have and love Dobermans. That struck me funny because I've had horses most all my life.

Dobermans are not easy dogs to raise. They are high energy, velcro and they love working with and being with their owner, so eager to learn and very quick about it. BUT....and this is a big BUT...(lol) They, as youngsters can be extraordinarily distractable. They have their own ways of doing things too. They are willing to do the task you ask but they say, "OK, I'll do it, but wait....I have a better way. Watch this." Or, "OK...I will, but now is not a convenient time." lol. In other words, they're creative.

They get bored very easily and they're very sensative so you can't be heavy handed. You have to find out what way they learn best (they are still individuals) and be creative too....keep 'em guessing, thinking and enthusiastic. If they get bored, they get destructive or shall we call that creative too? Creative decorating. lol

I have found what works best with my brood is emphasising the positive, limiting the "no's" as much as possible and instead distracting, showing them what I want and rewarding for ceasing a bad behavior. Or trying to have them do a behavior which is incompatible with what they're doing. If they're about to jump up on you, for instance, tell them to sit. They can't jump if they're sitting. Then reward for sitting. Soon they find that nothing good comes from jumping up on you and that behavior extinguishes itself.....no kneeing in the chest, no rotten time for the dog. He's just learning what to do and what not to do....what works and brings reward and what doesn't and learning happily.

katysdog, it REALLY riled me when you said it's all in the tone of voice. it moist certainly is not. there's been studies about that! it's totally not true. i've barked commands deeply, i've whispered and done commands in a very high falsetto voice after reading that article in a book and proved the article true time and time again. in the study, a male trainer encountered a woman who barked deep voiced commands at her german sheperd. he asked her why and she said because the dog's trainer was male and had a deep voice. the trainer approached the german sheperd and spoke voice commands at the german sheperd in a high, flasetto voice and the dog responded immediately. the woman tried it after the trainer in her normal voice and the dog responded immediatly. although, when trying to stop a dog, a deeper voice is sometimes desiphered as a scolding to a dog and a dog that only wants to please humans will stop whatever action and forget completely what bad thing they were doing momentarily out of fear, only to return to their nasty habits. you should train in your own normal voice, don't waver as to the tone. your dog will eventually learn the command no. high voices should really be used as a praise voice, that way your dog thinks of you more highly because you're not (to him) praising him as often. that way when you do use the high flasetto voice, he thinks that you are praising him greatly. so, use your high, falsetto voice when he does amazing things. normal tones for training and scolding for midly bad things. and a deep voice for bad things like biting.

allison

All dogs are not alike. They respond differently to different things. Some dogs actually do respond to the pitch of the voice, while other dogs pay more attention to what is said or the tone of voice that's used. There is no one answer that's cut in stone; you just have to know your dog. Even with my three each one responds to different things; the two girls are completely opposite even though they're the same breed, and Bimmer seems to need only a look to know what I want him to do.

I think it all depends on if your dog respects you as the leader. Wouldn't matter what phrase you use or the way you say it. They listen to you! Don't cut them any slack in the beginning and they will learn.

Yeah, I dont believe its all in the tone. With Princess I can tell her sit, or whatever in a regular voice and she will respond. Sometimes she's being bratty and I have use the I'm getting ticked tone to get her to listen (no differnt than a kid).
Last summer a man came to our shop with his puppy he was so proud of how smart the pup was. He wanted to show us all he could get her to do. I was in shock! He started yelling out these orders in the meanest tone, Sit, I said SIT, go get it, ect. The puppy listened but I felt so sorry for the poor thing! I felt like the poor thing cant really be enjoying himself playing fetch when that guy is screaming at it like it just did something wrong, poor thing had to be scared poohless! I really wanted to just go pick up that pup and take it home with me. We told him we dont have to yell at Princess to get her to do things, his response was YOU HAVE TO, ITS ALL IN THE TONE......if I did that with Princess she'd look at me like I had mental problems and most likely hide from me.

I think tone can help if you back it up with a lot of consitent training. By that I mean you always use the same tone when you work with them and follow through so that they know that they have to do that.

I don't think it's everything though. Definitely not with a pup.

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A tone of voice is only as good as the response that goes with it. It's all about condition-response learning. If the dog does a certain behavior and you just say, "no" and there's nothing that goes with no, then no means nothing to a dog. It's just a sound. You'd have to have something associated with the word that reduces the chance of that behavior being repeated.

But, what studies have shown is that it is far more effective to give no attention for undesireable behavior what so ever and distract or show the dog another alternate behavior that you like. Then praise/treat for good behavior. Saying, "no" may be taken by the dog as attention. You're talking to him. You're looking at him. Unless you accompany it with some very harsh correcton, it isn't going mean much of anything. And being too harsh will ruin your dog.

In other words, whatever behavior the dog is doing will be repeated if there is a payoff. If what he's doing is better than the consequence or payoff, he'll keep doing it.

The tone of my voice works with my terrier, but as the breeder of my Anatolian said "they have a mind of their own which turns into a deaf ear when they decide to do what they want". I have a feeling Anatolian are much like Filas in that way.

oops, didnt mean to double post

Sometimes the word 'no' is way over used and the dog tunes you out. Its like nagging, a big no-no with dogs and kids. When a dog is misbehaiving (and kids, for that matter lol!) its better to tell them What to do instead of What Not to do. For example, if the dog is jumping up and you say 'no' the dog may ignore you. The next time the dog jumps up say 'off' (a good command to teach) and then 'sit' A dog can't jump while she's sitting.
The tone of the voice can be important. If your telling your dog to quit licking you, but your laughing the dog is going to keep on doing it because its getting attention that doesnt sound negative. However, I believe the commant made about men trainers vs. female trainers because of the deepness of voice to be completely false.

That is so true Brattina. I agree with all of that. It's a good idea to try to get your dog to stop doing things too, by teaching them other words, like commands and saving no for the big stuff and not get them soooo use to hearing it all the time. I use a lot of leave it, enough, away, out, but they had to be shown and taught what those words mean. They are not punishing. They are just commands.....But at one point or time something unpleasant must have occured with the no word for it to mean anything. If someone uses a very harsh, sharp voice, that may be enough unpleasant or startling to make the word, no effective. But just saying, "no" isn't usually very much of a deterent.

And I agree, when possible try to show the dog something else, an alternative behavior and reward lavishly when it stops the undesireable behavior.

I'd say the two breeds are very similar in many ways, Barb. It makes perfect sense when you think that they were bred to do essentially the same type of work, just in different environments. It takes a tough, tenacious and mentally focused dog to tend herds with minimal human supervision.

Old boss told me to put a growl in my voice and lower it when I said no. Works for me
anybody tired of old boss yet? I learned so much from him that i just want to pass it on. He was an awesome trainer.