to Pops, regarding Samoyeds

Hi Pops (and everyone)

I got some clarifications on some things, and wanted to share them with everyone.

Here is what Pops said:



I didn't send a link to this place, but I did directly quote pops and sent it to the contacts I've made in the samoyed community. I will show you the responses I've received:

To clarify, each quote is from a different response from a different person. Names have been with held.

More replies

So, there you have it from the horse's (or breed club's) mouth.

A modern samoyed in its primitive habitat.

Interesting topic.. I've never paid much attention to Zero's fur in the snow, so I can't give any personal experiences, but his coat is very much longer and poofier than it's supposed to be. This year when the snow rolls in, I'm going to observe how it works. From what I can sort of recall, his coat repels moisture pretty well but I could be way of base on that one.

He says:
So he says that they dont' all have that coat and that it is largely grooming.
He says a puffy coat won't insulate.
If you look at the native dog links Pops seems to be right. They all have flattish coats.
One of the replies states the the Samoyed is the same as it always was, but "enhanced." Lol I've heard that one before. Ask them how the Samoyed is enhanced. Is he prettier, can he work better?
I really don't get what their problem is with the insulating thing.

Alright, he was wrong about the origins, but as far as the coat goes? The consensus seems to be that the coat is the same in American dogs and the native dogs, that it's all in the grooming. Yet, the coats in those photos look different than any Samoyed I've seen. Does anyone have some pics of ungroomed Samoyeds?

What is felting exactly? I always thought that it was when the top layer of hair matts/sticks together. The dogs in those photos appear just to have flat coats.

The coats of the dogs on the sled/in the snow look much different than the coat of the dog in your sig, IMO. Much flatter and less showy and poofy (showy in the "flashy" sense, not "dog-show" sense.) Maybe it's partially due to grooming. But looking at the dog lying on the sled, I don't see how his legs could possibly be groomed out to look as poofy as the dog in the siggie.

I think asking a bunch of reindeer herders will get you a more knowledgable result than asking a bunch of show breeders, who naturally will support the show-bred coats.

He appears to have been correct in that samoyeds originally came in colors, not just white, as I discovered from this:

http://www2.polarcomm.com/~newman/SAMOYEDSthenandnowwithpics.pdf

"Abruzzi makes these statements concerning the dogs: 'they are varied in
color, white, white and black, brown and gray with pointed ears, up and curled tails with deep chests'."

There are also pictures in the PDF, some of the dogs are clearly dark colors.

Thanks guys. I'm not trying to stir a debate, it was just that I didn't believe what pops said, and frankly I still don't have the faith in him that I do in those that actually are involved in the breed.

FYI- many of those that replied actually do work/sled/weightpull their dogs and know first hand what they're talking about unlike some people who seem to think they know more then what they actually do.

I think I'll stick to what they've told me, because they have the most knowledge on it. And if you know if any nomadic reindeer herders in siberia who have email, let me know.

Otherwise, I'm going to stick to what the breed club says and believe that.

I think that any debate that occurs from this I will stay out of, because my mind is made up and I'm comfortable with what I've heard. AGain, thanks for your attention and for reading my posts.

yeah i knew this was coming
first i did mix up the Sami (lapps from Scandanavia & NE Russia) with the Samoyed (pronounced sami yed). they are a related people. both names mean the people and both are from the uralic language group.
i was not mistaken on the coat issue. and i probably know as much about the breed as some in the club and more than some especially the BYBs who also belong to the club for appearances of legitimacy (happens w/ all breeds that get serious BYB action).
the Samoyed should actually be a very versatile dogs as it didn't become a sled dog until the russians introduced dogsledding to the Samoyed people in the 1880s. before that it was used to hunt & herd reindeer which the Samoyeds used for food & transportation. but then i honestly don't know that much about the breed.

Nenets (one of the northern Samoyeds)
Google Image Result for http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/images/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_023-016_16003.jpg

Selkups (the only remaining southern Samoyeds, ignore the GSD and look at the sled dog next to it)
http://gdb.rferl.org/1DE749C3-83E9-4BCC-B4D6-8AC82AE15262_mw800_mh600.jpg

Samis
File:Saami Family 1900.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for comparison of coats on other strictly sled dogs
alaskan husky
http://www.alaskan-husky-behavior.com/image-files/alaskan-husky-pictures7.jpg

greenland dog (husky)
Greenland Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

east siberian laika (developed by eastern neighbors of eastern most Samoyed people for hunting & moderate sledding)
Google Image Result for http://static.gotpetsonline.com/pictures-gallery/dog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/east-siberian-laika-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/pictures/east-siberian-laika-0001.jpg

please understand i am not downing the breed. they are a nice likable breed and when we settle somewhere more northerly the wife would like one or maybe two. i will work it(them) along side a east siberian laika or two as hunters & casual sledders. but that is after retirement which is still a few year off yet.

I'd bet a lot of it is grooming. I don't know much about Samoyeds, but have seen Pomeranians and Chows in show coat, vs. ungroomed. They seem to have similar coats to the Samoyeds. Left 'au naturel' they are definitely much less 'poofy' looking.

Pops, no worries.

It seems (as you can see from above) that the only point that they correct you on reallly was they're origins.

Some people do breed for the wrong coat. The bitch in my siggie does have correct coat, but she's fluffy for grooming.

Also, in show dogs, lots of the under coat is groomed out. But, most sammies could grow a real undercoat in very short period of time if they had to.

Sorry if I got a little huffy. I do that sometimes. I wasn't sure what you were trying to get at, and actually, you helped educate me quite a bit and I really do appreciate that.

I wanted to educationally provide you guys with more pictures and links that may sort of help answer some questions about sammies.

Here is a link to Serum Run. If you guys would please check this out, you can see what modern bred samoyeds look like when they're not groomed.
The Team

I guess I just thought that you could tell how similar they were. Grooming does quite a bit, but really the modern samoyeds are really really close to what they once were. But, if you have a short coated breed, it would probably be hard to "see" the dog under the fur, and also to be able to tell texture if you only have pictures.

People who don't work their dogs in this breed are really looked down on, because there is a legitimate fear that sammies could be fru fru dogs, and "just another pretty face."

And the link above is for someone that really, really works his dogs. They're from modern lines and they're very tough dogs. At least his are, because he gets dogs that do what they actually should be able to do.

My next sammy will probably be from working lines, and I'm also going to get a working mentor here in the near future.

I think that part of working ability is all brain work- sort of like positive thinking- if you THINK you can do it, you can. It doesn't matter how pretty a dog is, if they don't want to work, then they're not correct.

You can't always depend on the breed clubs for valid info, either. While writing an article on Pharaoh Hounds, I learned that although it is conclusive that the Pharaoh Hound is actually an offshoot of the Ibizan, both from Malta, the AKC and the breed club are both still advertising the Pharaoh Hound as the Egyptian dog seen portrayed in tomb paintings and found as skeletal remains in tombs. That dog is actually the Tessem -- likely one of the ancestors of the Malta dogs, but NOT a Pharaoh Hound.

This link shows some of the foundation stock for the modern Samoyed. They seem less poofy than those being shown, but generally more fluffy than a comparible husky or malamute. Early Samoyeds

I've asked about this on a sleddog forum before, my concern isn't really being warm, but picking up iceballs. Think of the Saint Bernard, the infusion of Newfie gave us the long coated version, and it is very well insulated, but it was prone to collecting ice and snow in bad conditions. The fluffy coated Malamute is incorrect for a reason too.

The other question for me, is can water reach the undercoat? The dog in my sig is waterproof and wont melt snow. I can stick him in the shower and his undercoat stays dry until I go after it with the hand held nozzle. The flat top coat keeps the water off while the undercoat continues insulating. It does seem like the outercoat on a sammy stands off and might let water in.

Maybe I need a Samoyed to carefully inspect this problem...

I can tell you that a correct samoyed coat is going to be longer then a malamures or a huskies.

the coats of mals and huskies are going to be more water proof then a samoyeds. Samoyeds originiated in a sort of artic desert, where as malamutes and huskies originated in a wetter climate.

If a samoyed's coat is not groomed for show and its left to the elements, the coat will felt and then become waterproof.

However, even show sams can roll in mud and snow and it won't reach the undercoat and the skin beneath will be dry IF the coat is correct.

Some breeders breed for a shorter coat, but sometimes then the texture will suffer and the coat will become plush, rather then the harsh coat which it is supposed to be.


Just like in any breed, you'll have breeders who breed for an incorrect coat because sometimes that's what judges put up.

On Serum Run in 2007, the alaskan huskies had to turn back because it got too cold for them. The samoyeds coat insulated them so very well that they didn't even need blankets in the sub 50 degree weather.

I'm not saying that sams are the ultimate sled dog. Sledding isn't even their main function. They're certainly not NEARLY as fast as huskies and they don't have that steady hauling power that the malamutes have. There will never be a samoyed team that comes close to being as fast as a team of alaskan huskies.

The snow does have a tendency to ball up on samoyeds, especially due to the feathering on their legs.

But, these guys hold their own and they have their place and the people in the breed who really care are doing their best to keep them there. No breed is perfect, but I also don't feel its fair to pass them off as just another pretty face.

The people who don't concentrate on the breed's working abilities are not doing it any favors.

sammgirl
is anything being done to retain the other ancestral traits of the breed? remember the Samoyed people had them for centuries before the Russians taught them dogsledding. people living at the subsistence level tend toward multipurpose dogs and the sams were used to herd reindeer & hunt as well even after the adoption of dogsledding. I would love to hear if anyone is doing herding trials, tracking or someother similar activities.

There are some people herding, weight pulling and packing. I haven't heard anything about hunting either originally or here. Working Samoyed News

The snow balling effect is a major problem then. They might not be "true" sleddogs like the Siberian or Malamute, but it still comes from a cold climate.

some of the Nenets and other Samoyedic peoples were almost pure hunter gatherers as such their dogs PRIMARY function would have been to hunt.

We have a sammie that comes in for a bath once a month and it is an MAJOR pain in the butt to get that dog actually wet. I have never seen anything like it. even with a hand held nozzle and high water pressure it is just such a chore to get that dog all the way wet.

or was... not so much now because we gave it a hair cut. Now its about 1 1/2 inches long all over. easier to bathe thats for sure

with every breed, dogs that may be up to standard and "a perfect breed example" in the breed club are extremely different than working dogs of the same breed. While the breed standard is supposedly written to judge dogs based on how well they can do their job and perform...it just isn't anymore.

to Psy- there are some sams that do tracking, but that's not hunting. There are some people who have hunted polar bears with them, but I'm not sure where I read that and I'll have to dig through my samoyed literature to get more familliar.

Unlike in some breeds, there's not as big of a split between working and "show." There IS a big split in the border collies and such, but facing facts, samoyeds aren't as popular and the majority of people that show their dogs also work them in some venue. As I've said, for the most part, they're not just a pretty face (for example, poodles who are a retriever were moved into the nonsporting section because people don't use them like they used to).

Samoyeds can be used for hauling (carting), herding (probably considered their primary function), sledding, and are great family dogs. Huskies and Mals are not all purpose dogs. I've never heard of anyone herding with a husky or a malamute, but maybe it could be done.

As for samoyeds not being a "true" sled dog, I'm not sure I agree with that. There are many sled dogs that aren't as common as huskies in sledding for several reasons, but that doesn't make them "false" sled dogs. Do you know what chinooks are?

Plenty of people sled with their sams and I'm sure that they do consider then "true" sled dogs. Would you mind to clarify what you're saying? Maybe I'm just not understanding you.

If samoyeds weren't made for sledding, then I doubt that they could have done the Serum Run trail. It's 800 miles long in sub 50 weather. I've said that a few times now.

If you go back through the thread and click on the links, you can see where I'm getting my information.