Trouble raising our English Mastiff

We have a 4.5 month old English Mastiff named Gracie. She is already 60lbs. Gracie is our only dog and we have 3 and 6 year old daughters.

Gracie started off very mellow and our only problem was mouthing. Now she is barking practically any time she is awake and we aren't looking at her. The mouthing is frequent enough that you are usually expecting it when you have contact with her. Our big problem is, of course, with the children...especially the three year old. Ellie asks before petting the dog, puts her arm around her and Gracie will be calm and out of the blue will turn her head quickly and nip her on the face or wherever. We are watching to make sure that Ellie is not instigating the nipping. Most times she is not. We have found that when we walk her twice a day, she is calm for several hours(comatose) afterward. But as soon as she has energy, it starts again.

We love having her and don't want to believe that this is aggressive behavior. With all of the different dog training techniques that are proposed to us, it is difficult for us to know which one is the best. The obedience school believes that domination is bad. She is getting way too big to have her "mouthing" us like this. She is not breaking skin, just to add that.

Any suggestions from other large dog owners?
Any help is appreciated.

I think Gracie, although a young pup (she's not that young though) needs to learn some manners and putting her face in someone's face and especially mouthing and nipping are not good manners. At this point it's probably just puppy stuff/play, but you can do some things to extinguish something which is clearly bothering and hurting you and your kids. Whether or not it will turn into aggression doesn't make much difference. Aggression can come from a dog setting up the rules and doing things that you don't want them to do. You can't let a dog call the shots and make those choices. There's nothing wrong with using a very firm voice and give explicit commands. You're dealing with a hard dog, like I deal with my Doberman. They're not easy and you can't let them think they're in charge....not one iota. I don't think your pup is necessarily thinking he's in charge, but this needs to be prevented. They can become dangerous if it's not clear who's 'da boss. Any dog can. It doesn't mean that you have to be harsh, mean, frightening to them, or causing pain and abuse. You don't have to be severely dominating. But you need to let the dog know in no uncertain terms who's running things and it isn't Miss Gracie. They also need to know that you control their resources and only when they comply, do they get those resources....food, treats, toys, attention, affection, opening the door for them so they can go out, getting the collar on so she can go for a walk. I wouldn't give her furniture privileges until she's older and you know her better and she knows who's whom in your family group. (pack) They must have lots of obedience training. All these types of things let the dog know clearly who their leader is. I emphasise positive methods. But I do use a firm voice and I have resorted to pulling Lyric, my Dobe off of my Chihuahuas when he was young and rough. I couldn't wait around or tell the Chi's to ignore him. LOL. I'd go over and pull him off and tell him, "LEAVE IT!" grrrr. Then I'd wait and watch for his good behavior in leaving them alone or being gentle, and I'd then lay on the schmooze...."goooooooood boy."

I'd be very careful and supervise very closely when she's around your kids.Then when she is too pushy or doing that which you describe, walk away. NO ATTENTION. Teach her to sit before she gets a pat from anyone...always. When she greets a friend or your kids, she must sit politely first, before getting ANY attention. Teach your kids to do the same. (not sit before they get attention, but to do that with the dog) LOL. Everyone in the family must be consistant. If anyone slacks off, you'll lose her. Kids can't be trusted to remember what you tell them, so you need to be right there. Never leave them alone at all with the dog...any dog. Everyone must walk away and absolutely ignore the dog when she does these obnoxious behaviors. When she settles, you can give her a chew toy and praise her big time for gnawing on that. Don't forget to praise her a lot for good behavior. Give her a treat when she's being good. Really show her the contrast between what you don't like and what you do. NO ATTENTION or anything good for lousy behavior and tons of love, praise, attention, treats when she's behaving the way you like or obeying a command.

I see you've taken her to obedience school but how far along is she? Do you practice daily at home?

You might impliment the nothing in life is free training concepts to reinforce that you are the one who makes the rules. And that all humans are in charge, not her. Your kids can help do some of these suggestions that are in the link that I'll put here for you. If they ask for a sit and give the dinner to Gracie after she obeys them, that will aid in developing her perception of all humans, even the kids as being in charge of her.

In addition, I would not allow your child to hug the dog. This can feel intrusive or aggressive to some dogs and they can feel defensive. I'd be careful about your child or anyone getting their faces right in front of the dog's face.

Here's the link: http://www.sspca.org/Dogs_TANSTAAFL.html

You probably won't have to be so rigid forever, but I'd give her a little boost...or head start this way. It will help and be applicable in many other areas, including general manners. That is because she'll learn more respect for humans and especially the humans in her family who are her leaders.

This is so long. Sorry, I ramble. This is to hold you over until Creature Teacher arrives. She may have some extra ideas. Keep us posted. Good luck.

As usual, I agree, endorse, and dig it. Listen to the 'Luv; she knows her stuff.

Here's a link to my article about what folks are calling Nothing In Life Is Free training: http://www.dogsday.8k.com/custom.html (Second article down. Please forgive the site; it's under major construction.) It's important for you and your family to start this exercise as soon as possible. Gracie's a big girl, and she's only going to get bigger. We need her to understand that socially, you guys are the big ones!

My next concern would be accidental injuries. Gracie will probably outweigh both your children soon, and what she considers a playful romp may cause injury to your girls. The big danger in having a large dog with children is that the dog may hurt the children without meaning to. So it's vital that you supervise them any time the girls are with Gracie. One accident is all it takes to change everyone's lives. You can prevent it by keeping a close eye on what's happening, and interfering when things are looking a little off to you.

Last, I believe very strongly in the importance of teaching children to understand and respect dogs. I've spent more than one training session with mommies and daddies working with their children while the dog waited outside. You need to make sure your kids know that dogs are sweet, wonderful animals, but they can also feel pain and get their feelings hurt. Sometimes dogs want to be alone too, and they can get upset if children won't honor their signals to "back off". I love my dogs desperately, but I never forget that they've got mouths full of Exacto knives.

All that said, I want to add that I grew up with large dogs, mainly dobermans, and I think that no child's life is complete without a doggy-brother or -sister. I thanked my mother over and over again for instilling a love of dogs in me; she's the reason I'm a trainer today. I think your girls will thank you just the same when they grow up and understand what Gracie meant to them.

A-w-w...thanks CT. I don't know everything. I'm just kind of bossy with my dogs and have made a few observations about the rascals. LOL.

About the face nipping. It's disconcerting, and you certainly can't have her doing that with your little girl, but it should make you feel better to know that my Shiva does that. It's her way of showing affection - one of them, lol! She puts her face right up to yours and then opens her mouth and just barely runs her lips over your nose or mouth. You can feel her teeth a bit when she does it to your nose, but it's all very gentle. She was a little less gentle when she was a baby - just didn't have the motor skills she's got now.

And of course, she checks Charley's moustache for any food that might be on the edges . . .

I just noticed that again. So....are you looking at her when she is demanding that you do? That is getting on the edge of aggression, in my eyes....going from spoiled brat to seriously demanding. I'd send her packing to her room to think about it. Seperate her from you and the family when she acts like that. I wouldn't put up with that for one minute. I'd be marching her to her room! (mind you....you don't want to talk, scold, yell, scruff....that's all attention.) Just remove her from your company or ignore that. (that is, if you can stand all that noise until she gets the picture.) Don't look at her. Don't give her the time of day. Hmph!

Renee....Lyric does that too, just like you describe. But, when he was a puppy, he was discouraged from that sort of thing. He had to first learn his manners and to keep his teeth to himself. Then, once he grew up and was not so roudy and uncivilized, and I knew him better... then he was allowed a little leway there. He had learned the meaning of the words, "gentle" and "no bite." So, if he would get too rough, I could remind him. He had to first learn the "default" way to behave and then, as an occasional privilege, I am opened to a toothy, frenchy. LOL.

But in this case that CMW describes, I wouldn't go for letting that pup put his teeth on my face or the kids'. She's sounding flat out pushy and I think there's a difference here.

I'm having trouble with nipping as well.

But, he only sometimes nips my face or tries. If he does he kind of puts his tongue first... I don't know what he does but he makes it not hurt as much as it does when he nips my arm or feet.

I think he knows how sensitive that area is.

Big dog,

You could use some of those ideas too, hopefully on your pup. (are you getting to keep your pup, after all?) Mouthing and nipping that puppies do, does need to stop eventually or it can be big trouble later. My idea is by about 4 or 5 months, they should be getting over that as far as biting on people. They will continue to want to get at your stuff and teethe on chew toys, but that should be ample time to get the message that biting on people is not appreciated. To help him over this stage, you need to stick to a training plan and be consistant, never wavering from it. Don't try one thing and after a week think that it's not working so I'll try something else. Stay with it. Be persistant. And the best way, IMO is the way I described...taking away any payoff for doing that. The payoff for the dog is you and your attention that you give. Remove those things and his fun is over. When he's playing nicely, add those things and he'll soon see which behavior gives him the best things; your affection, attention, playtime, treats. But you and everyone who interacts with the dog needs to be consistant.

Doberluv, Shiva's gotten very good about asking for permission before doing her kissy-face thing, lol. You do have to get it under control before you can allow it because it can turn into an issue of control.

The thing I have to watch with Shiva is her tendency toward passive aggression with Bimmer and Kharma. I have never seen a passive aggressive dog before! I think a large part of it is her lack of self-confidence, which we're working on. It's a real problem for her competitive nature that there's really not any one thing that she's BEST at. I'd like to get her started on some weight pulling to give her something that's all hers to do.

With kids, I'm a big advocate of getting the kids involved in some of the dog's training to keep it in the dog's mind that the kids are supposed to be obeyed as well since dogs can tend to want to treat little ones as pups.

Shiva sounds like a thinking dog. And I bet that weight pulling would give her lots of confidence.

And I agree totally about kids getting involved. It's really important. When my kids were young, I don't remember really having to tell them much on how to interact with the dogs. But I must have. They knew when to reward and when to command. They just seemed to have a sense about it. They were bossy, just like I am. LOL.

First it was a GSD who was exceedingly good natured and wonderful with the kids. But if he were in the way or doing something they didn't like, they had no problem telling him to back off. They'd tell him, "go lie down" or "Ajax! come!" LOL. They were very young and just kind of natural at it. They were also very loving and gentle with the dogs. Bonnie, our Lab was the next dog while they were growing up and it was the same thing. She'd chase them down the hill on their sleds, nipping their ankles and I'd hear them hollering at her, "Bonnie! quit!" They had no problem handling the dogs. But of course, we had horses too and they were pretty confident around those big animals. LOL.

Side note if it has not already been said - Be VERY careful walking a giant breed like a Mastiff puppy twice or even once a day! This is not a good idea for giant puppies as it can mess up joint and bone development and put to much stress on the growing process too soon. I would stop the walks until after a year or more. Enroll her in puppy school and allow her to romp freely (supervised of course!) in the backyard for excercise!!

ROFL! Conniving might be a more appropriate word . . .

OK....now I'M rolling ont the floor. You're so right. They CAN be conniving, can't they! And manipulitive, conspiring. They sneak things up on you and you didn't even see it coming. LOL.

Don't forget deceitful!

Oh yes! AND... Deceitful! I hate dogs! LOL.

They are such wonderfully accomplished con artists . . . Shiva's the best at crocodile tears, lol!