Trainers - I NEED YOU!!!!

Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
7,402
Likes
0
Points
0
#1
If any of you have a bit of free time, I'd love some other dog folks/professionals to join in to add their answers to these questions -

I'm being interviewed by someone and this could have some impact on what is going on in the training world today.. I've written my answers but before I meet with her, I'd love more perspectives..I'd hate to look back and have to give myself the V-8 smack because I've missed something valuable.

Thanks in advance - here are the questions (Oh, and if you could be as brief in your answers as possible, that would help me immensely).

1. Would you say that dog training is inherently political?

2. If yes, then why?

3. Can you categorize the range of different approaches to dog
training? (Why is this range important?....as you were saying, all
dogs are different). And then tell me which way you lean and why?

4. When I was growing up, life was simple. You got a dog...maybe you
took one obedience class...and then the dog became part of your
family. How has this changed, in your opinion?

5. Do you think that a dog's life has changed for the better given
today's hyper awareness regarding dog issues? (Now that their kids are
in school, helicopter moms are turning their sights on how to raise
the perfect family dog.)

6. If there was ever a misunderstanding about dogs out there, today,
what would that be? How would you correct it?

7. Finally, what do you think a dog needs in order to live a full
happy life? Compare this then, with how most dogs fair?

8. Why do we care so much about our furry friends? (Something
philosophical here?)

9. To back up a little, can you give me some examples of the
approaches that dog owners/trainers take that drive you crazy? (Are
you a proponent of shock collars? Not? Pointy pronged collars? Not? Do
you see people over-treat train? Are dogs getting fat? Are some dog
trainers too rough?What have you witnessed in this respect? Some would
say more extreme dog trainers are actually abusive...thoughts?)

10. Imagine now that you have an audience. Someone's just brought
their new puppy home. They don't know where to begin with respect to
training. What questions should they be asking??? I expect that with
you, Colleen, in particular, people need to ask themselves just what
kind of relationship they want with their dog?
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Ontario
#2
1. Would you say that dog training is inherently political?
No
2. If yes, then why?

3. Can you categorize the range of different approaches to dog
training? (Why is this range important?....as you were saying, all
dogs are different). And then tell me which way you lean and why?

There is everything for abusive 'hanging and helicoptering to no applied aversives at all. There are trainers who wait for dogs to do wrong things so they can correct (punish) to people who set the dog up to succeed so the can reinforce (reward)

The range is no important exactly. NO dog needs to be helicoptered to be trained.

I lean towards the no application on aversives, but would like to point out that does not mean permissive or that the dog is not expected to obey.

4. When I was growing up, life was simple. You got a dog...maybe you
took one obedience class...and then the dog became part of your
family. How has this changed, in your opinion?


A big part is how families have changed. Dogs used to roam a lot more, that way they became better socialized. Often moms were the stay at home variety so there was someone around for the dog. Now we live such busy lives, dogs are left alone for long periods of time. Many dogs are undersocialized and under stimulated.

5. Do you think that a dog's life has changed for the better given
today's hyper awareness regarding dog issues? (Now that their kids are
in school, helicopter moms are turning their sights on how to raise
the perfect family dog.)

In some ways yes, in some no. People are more aware of options with helping dogs. But many people try a what ever method they see on tv, or hear from a neighbour. Movies and media guide what people see in dogs. Ie Pitbulls are dangerous, and every time there is a movie with a dog people run out to get one whether it is the right dog or not.

6. If there was ever a misunderstanding about dogs out there, today,
what would that be? How would you correct it?

That dogs are pack animals and need to be dominated.

7. Finally, what do you think a dog needs in order to live a full
happy life? Compare this then, with how most dogs fair?

Dogs need clear guidelines, training BEFORE their are issues, mental and physical stimulation and companionship of humans. Many dogs are doing ok, things could be better but I think that will always be the case. There will always be room for improvement.

8. Why do we care so much about our furry friends? (Something
philosophical here?)

I do believe its a true symbiotic relationship and that we humans are meant to share our lives with animals. I think we get the better end of the deal, devotion, companionship, a friend, a child who will never leave us.

9. To back up a little, can you give me some examples of the
approaches that dog owners/trainers take that drive you crazy? (Are
you a proponent of shock collars? Not? Pointy pronged collars? Not? Do
you see people over-treat train? Are dogs getting fat? Are some dog
trainers too rough?What have you witnessed in this respect? Some would
say more extreme dog trainers are actually abusive...thoughts?)

I hate it when people blame the dog for their lack of training abilities. I really dislike when people use punishment to 'train' their dogs. I wish they would at least teach the dog what is wanted first before they punish at least giving the dog a chance of avoiding punishment.

10. Imagine now that you have an audience. Someone's just brought
their new puppy home. They don't know where to begin with respect to
training. What questions should they be asking??? I expect that with
you, Colleen, in particular, people need to ask themselves just what
kind of relationship they want with their dog?
[/QUOTE]
Yes what kind of relationship they want. But also what sort of dog they want. IF they want a lump that just lies there needing to ask 'permission' before it can do a thing, or if they want a companion that actively engages the world around him.
 

corgipower

Tweleve Enthusiest
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
8,233
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
here
#3
1. Would you say that dog training is inherently political

No. Not inherently. But there can be an element of politics, although I personally haven't seen very much of it.

2. If yes, then why?

Well, even though I said no, I have seen small amounts of politics in dog training.

I think for the most down, those who play politics in the industry have ego issues - they most likely are insecure on some level and feel a need to use political avenues to feel more important.

However, most of the trainers I've met and worked with seem to play well with others and share a common interest. They work with each other to enhance their own skills and to assist their colleagues.

3. Can you categorize the range of different approaches to dog training? (Why is this range important?....as you were saying, all dogs are different). And then tell me which way you lean and why?

The range is from completely compulsive to completely positive motivation. The two far most extremes don't work very well - extremes of anything rarely do. To be completely compulsive with absolutely no praise is going to border on abusive and lead to a dog who is unenthusiastic and shut down. To be completely positive motivation - and by completely I mean no ignoring, no NRM, punishers at all will lead to dogs who lack boundaries.

There are trainers who are primarily compulsive and use praise after the dog performs correctly, there are trainers who are primarily positive motivation who use NP, there are trainers who fall in between using combinations of compulsion and positive motivation, often teaching with positive motivation and then using PP after the dog has learned the exercises.

I am mainly mid range towards the positive motivation end. I teach the dog using positive motivation and NP. I use corrections later after the dog has shown proficiency.

As for why, my original education was more compulsive - the dogs learned with corrections and then received rewards for performing the exercise. I never thought that was fair to the dog. As I continued my education, I learned more about positive motivation. With each dog I train, I find myself using fewer corrections, but I am not at a point where I don't use any. I still have a hard time believing that the level of reliability I want my dogs to have can really be achieved without any PP. However, my use of PP has also changed. I used to use a lot of prong collar corrections and now I use more body blocking, verbal corrections and NP.

4. When I was growing up, life was simple. You got a dog...maybe you took one obedience class...and then the dog became part of your family. How has this changed, in your opinion?

Well, I'm not sure it has changed. There are a lot of people who still own dogs in that manner. However, I think dogs have become more common - more people own dogs, more people own multiple dogs. Along with that, there are going to be more dogs that need training. The total number of dogs increases, and therefore the total number of dogs with behavioral problems increases.

5. Do you think that a dog's life has changed for the better given today's hyper awareness regarding dog issues? (Now that their kids are in school, helicopter moms are turning their sights on how to raise the perfect family dog.)

No.
I think a lot of dog owners really aren't aware of anything regarding dog issues. Those that are often are misinformed - they believe what the see on TV regarding training, often using dominance theory. The media portrays pit bulls as dangerous and JQP blindly believes it.

6. If there was ever a misunderstanding about dogs out there, today, what would that be? How would you correct it?

That animal rightists have your dog's best interest in mind. That the HSUS knows what's best for dogs.

7. Finally, what do you think a dog needs in order to live a full happy life? Compare this then, with how most dogs fair?

Socialization, training, vet care as needed. Physical and mental stimulation. Owners who are aware of their dog and his needs and don't try to make him something he's not ~ if your dog is DA, forcing him to be a dog park social butterfly might not be in his best interest. He can still live a full and happy life without this. If the dog is high energy, then he's not going to be happy to stay cooped up in a pen or in the house. People need to be aware of their dog's needs and provide an outlet for their drives.

I think most dogs are fine. Dogs don't see things the way we do - they don't look at the dog next door and feel that they're missing out because that dog goes to the park or that dog has a softer bed.

8. Why do we care so much about our furry friends? (Something philosophical here?)

I think it speaks to our abilities to be compassionate, whether towards animals or other people.

9. To back up a little, can you give me some examples of the approaches that dog owners/trainers take that drive you crazy? (Are you a proponent of shock collars? Not? Pointy pronged collars? Not? Do you see people over-treat train? Are dogs getting fat? Are some dog trainers too rough? What have you witnessed in this respect? Some would say more extreme dog trainers are actually abusive...thoughts?)

My biggest issue is with owners who don't take responsibility for their dog. They allow him to run loose through the neighborhood, they don't train him and then bring him to the park where they allow him to jump on everyone, they own intact animals and do nothing to prevent litters.

Some other issues are trainers who think they know all there is to know about dogs and don't continue their own education, are closed minded to other approaches. People who believe in dominance theory, people who don't train their dog yet expect him to behave perfectly, people who label their dog "stubborn".

10. Imagine now that you have an audience. Someone's just brought their new puppy home. They don't know where to begin with respect to training. What questions should they be asking??? I expect that with you, Colleen, in particular, people need to ask themselves just what kind of relationship they want with their dog?

Much of puppy training will be the same regardless of the answers. There are certain basics that all dogs should receive - socialization, basic obedience, manners. The only difference I've come across is if someone wants a dog that will be competitive in obedience, then the break down of the exercises should be a bit different, but the fundamentals are the same.

They should be asking how to prevent future problems in order to not have to fix them after the fact. They should get an idea of what the dog should be like as an adult in order to be able to shape him in that direction. For example, if you're not going to want the adult dog on the couch, then the puppy should be kept off the couch. They should be asking how to set the dog up for success.
 

adojrts

New Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
4,089
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
#4
1. Would you say that dog training is inherently political?
No

2. If yes, then why?

3. Can you categorize the range of different approaches to dog
training? (Why is this range important?....as you were saying, all
dogs are different). And then tell me which way you lean and why?

Everything from out dated pack theroy, dominance and corrections to positive and luring. I do believe that it is important to understand and have knowledge of as many different methods/styles as possible, it shouldn’t mean that we use them all. Learning by others mistakes is a perfect example. I am a positive trainer/owner.
4. When I was growing up, life was simple. You got a dog...maybe you
took one obedience class...and then the dog became part of your
family. How has this changed, in your opinion?

30 yrs ago, we very seldom saw dogs travelling and being social with their owners, which is why it was typically only people wanting to compete with their dogs that took obedience classes. In this day and age, people are taking their dogs every place that allows dogs, therefore owners are having to seek obedience classes and early socialization to allow them to enjoy that time in public etc with their dog. There are more and more owners playing dog sports with their companions as well.


5. Do you think that a dog's life has changed for the better given
today's hyper awareness regarding dog issues? (Now that their kids are
in school, helicopter moms are turning their sights on how to raise
the perfect family dog.)

Medically yes and training for the most part has greatly improved. But I think we are seeing more and more dogs that are over weight, the trend seems to go hand in hand with each generation being more obese and less active.
6. If there was ever a misunderstanding about dogs out there, today,
what would that be? How would you correct it?

That dogs are domesticated wolves and that they need to be dominanted to be trained and to live with. More general public awareness by t.v programs and the internet. Leading by example.
7. Finally, what do you think a dog needs in order to live a full
happy life? Compare this then, with how most dogs fair?

I think that all a dog needs is to be treated fairly, with boundries, fed properly without being over fed, maintance medical and lots of TLC and lots of fresh air and exercise. I don’t think it is a crime if someone leaves their dog at home.........unless they know and love the adventures of road trips the dog doesn’t know what it is missing. Having said that I do believe that too many dogs don’t get enough exercise and they don’t get enough mental stimulation and training which as we all know leads to problems.
8. Why do we care so much about our furry friends? (Something
philosophical here?)

You said it ‘Friends’, they don’t judge us and they often forgive us even when we don’t deserve it.

9. To back up a little, can you give me some examples of the
approaches that dog owners/trainers take that drive you crazy? (Are
you a proponent of shock collars? Not? Pointy pronged collars? Not? Do
you see people over-treat train? Are dogs getting fat? Are some dog
trainers too rough?What have you witnessed in this respect? Some would
say more extreme dog trainers are actually abusive...thoughts?)

My number one peeve is the misconception that positive re-enforcement trainers/methods always have food on them, always have to reward with food (for the life of the dog no less) and we never use consequences. In short that positive is permissive and luring, which couldn’t be further from the truth of someone who understands and uses the methods correctly.
I have seen people be completely abusive when using a flat collar, while at the same time I have seen someone with knowledgable hands use a prong with no ill effects towards the dog.
If have seen people go from one extreme to the other, they screw up positive methods by luring and not understanding how to use the method correctly, then to jump to e-collars for a quick fix and often not using them correctly either. In short the dog pays for a lack of understanding, skill and patience.

10. Imagine now that you have an audience. Someone's just brought
their new puppy home. They don't know where to begin with respect to
training. What questions should they be asking??? I expect that with
you, Colleen, in particular, people need to ask themselves just what
kind of relationship they want with their dog?

They should be asking how they can learn to prevent unwanted behaviours first and how to get and keep the behaviours that they want.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#5
1. Would you say that dog training is inherently political?

If you mean "political" in the literal sense, no. If you mean something like political parties; the donkey and the elephant, yes.

2. If yes, then why?

There are in a very basic sense, two schools of thought on dog training; the punishers and the non-punisher types. And these bring up controversy between the "parties." There are people who know behavior and those who make it up as they see fit with no real knowledge of how dogs operate.

3. Can you categorize the range of different approaches to dog
training? (Why is this range important?....as you were saying, all
dogs are different). And then tell me which way you lean and why?

Yes. The range is important because dogs are being mistreated and misunderstood in the name of training all over the world. All dogs are individuals so they are different. But they are not that different. They're still of the same species and all are obedient to the laws of behavior. I lean toward controlling the dog's resources, adding things they like in response to behavior I like and removing or preventing access to the things they like for behavior I do not like. I don't believe in causing a dog pain, fear or intimidation in any way because they don't understand our morals or values. People label dogs as stubborn or naughty, then punish. It is only from human perception, not dogs'. And more importantly, I don't need to because there are loads of tricks in the bag to get behavior I want while causing no avoidance due to pain or fear, little wear and tear or shut-down to the dog.

4. When I was growing up, life was simple. You got a dog...maybe you
took one obedience class...and then the dog became part of your
family. How has this changed, in your opinion?


It has changed a lot because Mom and Dad work much of the time, kids are in organized sports and other extra curricular programs more than ever I think. So, the dog is left alone a good deal of the time, missing out on important socialization, interaction with the family, mental and physical stimulation. Dogs need plenty of closeness, a group feeling and attention from their family.

5. Do you think that a dog's life has changed for the better given
today's hyper awareness regarding dog issues? (Now that their kids are
in school, helicopter moms are turning their sights on how to raise
the perfect family dog.)

In some ways it is probable that life for a dog has changed for the better. But in other ways, no. I don't know that there is hyper-awareness regarding dog issues other than the recent banning of breeds, some TV trainers exposing the need for dogs to be trained, albeit in one case, it would be likely preferable if people floundered around on their own. But some awareness has probably come about for the need of dogs to get more exercise and some kind of structure. That is good provided no mistreatment of dogs increases due to certain publicity of certain methods touted as being in the dogs' best interest, when in fact, the methods can be very dangerous and harmful according to most experts.

6. If there was ever a misunderstanding about dogs out there, today,
what would that be? How would you correct it?

It is astounding to me that the old, disproved dominance, show 'em whose boss and old pack theory model is still flourishing with all the science and evidence out there which points to the contrary. The idea that dogs need to be dominated or they'll take over the "pack" has got to be put to rest once and for all. It is the cause of so many dogs' abuse. It is in large part why there are population explosions in shelters across the globe. The misunderstanding and over-anthropomorphizing of dogs by humans is astronomical. If more behaviorists and scientists in the know don't get more public exposure on TV, domestic dogs don't stand a chance for a better life. Behavior problems are the number one cause of dogs being abandoned in shelters or on the street and the biggest cause of abuse and neglect.

7. Finally, what do you think a dog needs in order to live a full
happy life? Compare this then, with how most dogs fair?

Involvement from his owners, kind, affectionate and fair treatment in accordance to how dogs think and learn. Dogs need owners somewhat knowledgeable of some positive, gentle training methods based on operant/classical conditioning, consistency and patience. Dogs need more exercise and exposure to novel things, more mental stimulation. Dogs need far more socialization as young puppies and onward. It is true that decades ago when the population was smaller, fewer cars, people let their dogs wander more. Dogs naturally got better socialization this way. Of course, in our society now, that is irresponsible to let dogs wander. So extra pro-active effort needs to go into dogs' welfare. Mind you, not that dogs need constant attention. That is not even good for them, but more involvement than I think many get.

8. Why do we care so much about our furry friends? (Something
philosophical here?)

It is thought that we had a convergent evolution with dogs. We evolved right along side these animals that probably domesticated themselves as in a fabric's weave with us. Many of the things we and dogs do evolved on account of the other species. We influence each other greatly. And of course, that thing in the limbic system, I think they call "attachment." There is a phenomenal attachment that dogs and humans share together.

In a strange sort of way, I think we also care so much about our furry friends because they reflect back to us what we would like to see in ourselves, but don't.


9. To back up a little, can you give me some examples of the
approaches that dog owners/trainers take that drive you crazy? (Are
you a proponent of shock collars? Not? Pointy pronged collars? Not? Do
you see people over-treat train? Are dogs getting fat? Are some dog
trainers too rough?What have you witnessed in this respect? Some would
say more extreme dog trainers are actually abusive...thoughts?)


People who use shock collars or other forms of pain or avoidance often use the excuse that they only use these things when the dog already knows and has demonstrated the correct response to a cue. What they don't understand is it isn't relevant that they did it right before and aren't now. It means the dog needs more training and needs to be given a reason to comply more reliably. The dog is not being "naughty" or "stubborn" because dogs do what works for them and that's the end of it. This is what is known at this time at any rate. Harsh punishment can cause untold detrimental side effects which people don't for see. If people would learn a little about dog behavior, learn some of the alternatives which preclude punishment, they would understand better why harsh punishment is not necessary or valuable in dog training.

Over treat training is a risk for over weight dogs. Therefore, compensations need to be made. If people learn and use a systematic reinforcement schedule, they only need to use a high rate of frequency in treat dispensing in the beginning of learning a new behavior. Part of the dog's meal ration can be used if that is an ample reinforcer for certain tasks. Low fat treats, even veggie type treats can be used if the dog likes them. Treats can and should be very small tid bits. In addition, finding other kinds of motivators or rewards is not only prudent to add interest for the dog, but also will assist in selecting varying values in the rewards to coincide with the degree of difficulty of a task. Sometimes a toy is preferable for some skills and being aware of life rewards, those ready-at-hand things dogs want at different times and contexts are valuable reinforcers.

Yes, many trainers are rough and unfair to dogs...do not prepare them or set them up for success. For their inability to teach, the dogs get punished and yes, oftentimes abused. A dog who is managed and taught correctly will never make you feel a need to correct sternly.

10. Imagine now that you have an audience. Someone's just brought
their new puppy home. They don't know where to begin with respect to
training. What questions should they be asking??? I expect that with
you, Colleen, in particular, people need to ask themselves just what
kind of relationship they want with their dog?


Wishfully, people should find out just enough before they get a puppy to even know what questions to ask. Number one on my list of things to do is socialization, a big, huge responsibility of a puppy owner and there isn't much time to waste. Asking how to best go about it is prudent.

How to go about introductory, fun lessons with things like (sit, come, walk with me, watch me, leave it).... how to make it pleasant for the pup so he'll engage with them more, how important prevention of unwanted behaviors is....to ward off the onset of problems rather than wait for them to blossom. They hopefully are conscientious enough to realize the importance of explicit trust the puppy has in his family, how to maintain and build that trust while teaching the puppy, what behaviors are workable and which aren't. It would be optimum if more people understood a little something about how dogs probably perceive things, how they learn, why they do the things they do, that they're not naughty, but absolutely normal and how to get the behavior we like without shutting them down, (very common) which in itself is not conducive to learning.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
7,402
Likes
0
Points
0
#6
Thanks for all your help you guys, I really, really appreciate it!! I'll post the article when it's published.:)
 

Adorum

New Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
4
Likes
0
Points
0
#7
Thanks for such an interesting thread. Really interesting to see the different takes.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top