Trouble Sitting and Downing from a distance

crowjik

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#1
Hi,
I've been working with my nine month old Siberian Husky Utiw pretty regularly. We started with come, then sit and stay, down and stay, and leave it. We've also worked on heel, drop it, find it, and various training games.
This is the first dog I've really tried to systematically train in various places; I've trained other dogs in the past but only for simple things and only in easy environments.
I know I've made various mistakes. Especially I've had trouble trying to use a reinforcement schedule; I've basically only read some general guidelines on how to use them (going from treating every time to every other and every third, etc). I think this has led me to moving too fast, which seems to be not only making things difficult now that we are in fairly complicated situations, but also seems to be leading to Utiw forgetting some of the things in easy situations.
Last week I noticed that Utiw was getting a lot worse with lying down; he would usually listen but sometimes only after being told twice or waiting thirty seconds or more. This even just inside the house with minimal distractions. I decided to stop working with anything more advanced and just try to get him to lie down quickly when I told him.
I was pretty successful doing that, and when Utiw seemed reliable with that with voice only and giving treats every other time I decided to work back through the steps we had gone through. The next thing we started on was sitting and downing from a distance (I usually work sit and down together: sit, down, sit...). Once I got three steps away, Utiw started to slide toward me everytime he either sat or lay down.
This is something that he was doing before, but not until I was around 20 feet away. I made a mistake then in just letting it go and moving on to other behaviors instead of trying to fix that.

For right now the idea I have is to stop working these behaviors for a couple days and do some work on heeling. Then I want to return to the sit and the down, at a very basic level, and try to shape his behavior with my hands, not letting him move from his spot when he does the behavior. Then I would move on again, little by little.

My questions are:
Does that sound like a reasonable way to fix the problem?

How long should I work with using hand signals before moving on to verbal? The few times that I did that with hand signals this morning everything was great, but I don't want to move on too fast and have to come back again.

Regarding reinforcement schedules, should I implement the reinforcement schedule at each step of the behavior (before adding distance, distractions, or duration), or should I only do it after certain progress? I'm not really sure on this, and I'm positive it's one of the reasons for some of the current difficulties. Also because I still need to work on being more consistent and systematic in training at all times, and not just during the three or four short formal sessions we do every day.

Thanks for your help,
Steve
 

Cessena

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#2
I think your plan sounds reasonable, but I'm not an expert I will leave others to comment on that.

What I will comment on is that you are doing pretty well for training a Siberian Husky. I have a Sibe as well, granted mine is much older, and he is STUBBORN! I've pretty much got it so he will sit about 90% of the time if I'm holding something tasty, after 6 months. If I'm not holding something tasty, or standing right in front of a door, you might as well forget it. He has no interest in doing something just because I told him to.

Every personality profile I've read of Siberian Huskies basically says: If you want to get a husky to do something it doesn't want to do, the best way to get them to do it is to bribe them.

So you may need to take it extra slow when you work on weaning your pup off treats. (And maybe use some other kind of reinforcement, a favorite toy, a trip outside, lots of affection, whatever your dog loves.)
 

corgipower

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#3
he's about the right age to be going through a bit of a deaf and forgetful stage.

they know things, but they simply won't do it. their body is changing, their mind is elsewhere.

i would work on simple things and be prepared with your reenforcers to get him to perform as needed. you might need additional reenforcers for a little while.

it's a bit of a 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
 

adojrts

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#4
Personally I won't train with food/treats/toys visable or in my hands.....thats luring and the dogs quickly learn not to do the bebaviours that we want unless they KNOW we have the goodies.
It also sounds like he is going through a bit of regression, which may or may not have been brought on by you changing your criteria. Also when you work on distance, can you turn away from your dog and break eye contact? So many people back away from their dog, to gain distance, this has limited success especially when the person glances away, then the dog breaks. Have you trained a release from the stay? This is also very important.

Look forward to hearing your replies.

Lynn
 

IliamnasQuest

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#5
There are a few things that come to mind in reading your posts - and these may or may not apply to your situation (since I only have minimal information, which is normal in a forum post).

First, you're working with a spitz breed and they're known for their lack of interest in obedience. I have chows, so I understand how they can lose focus easily .. *L* .. it takes a lot of persistence to be successful with these breeds, but it CAN be done.

Two, you have a young dog. Asking a young dog for consistency at a distance is difficult because they generally don't have the behaviors really solid, and when you add distance they start losing their enthusiasm and interest. It's easy for them to backslide at that point which is what it appears that you're seeing.

Also, as already mentioned, your dog is hitting a period of adolescence when you would expect to lose some focus. All of my dogs go through an adjustment as they make that move from puppy to adult and they all seem to forget some of their training for awhile. I've learned to just accept that, to continue working them at a calm level that they can handle, and it all comes back into place eventually. If I get upset with them, it usually messes up the training so instead I just think "ahhh, okay .. adolescence" and I persist without stressing them much.

Three, your schedule of reinforcement may be causing some of the problems. You mentioned treating every time, then every second time, then every third time, etc. This is not really the best way to go. Initially you do treat every time, and then you may start skipping a time occasionally, but you want to end up with a random and unpredictable reinforcement "schedule". You don't want the dog to think "oh, I'm not going to get reinforced this time, so I might as well not do the behavior" (of course, they don't think in such an exact way, but you get my drift). Dogs work best when they never know WHEN and WHAT and HOW MUCH they will get. If you use a predictable schedule of reinforcement, your dog is smart enough to figure that out and then there's no motivation for the first time or two when they know there's no reward coming.

So, instead, mix it up! Maybe a treat on the first behavior this time, maybe the third behavior the next time, maybe the second the next time, and then again on the first behavior. Change the reinforcements, too. Maybe one will be a treat, two will be a huge play time where you run and wrestle with him (IF he likes that), another might be running out to pee on a bush, and then maybe back to a treat of a different type.

If you think of people who get into gambling at a slot machine - what keeps them coming back is the idea that they never know how much they'll get or when it will happen. It's unpredictable, which draws them in. You can go to a pop machine, put your money in and get a predictable reward every time, but that doesn't make them exciting. It's the NOT KNOWING that makes things exciting.

It's unclear as to whether or not you're using visible rewards. Visible rewards (lures) are sometimes good initially but should be faded very fast or the dog begins to see the reward as part of the actual cue - and when the reward is not visible, the dog truly doesn't understand the behavior because part of the cue is missing. So keeping those treats out of sight (preferably not even on your body - put some on a table, some on a shelf, tuck a few treats here and there in random places in your training area so that you can easily run to a treat from anywhere) is very important.

This is how I usually teach a behavior:
1. find a way to get the dog to offer the behavior (lure if needed) and immediately reward - fade lure quickly - continue to do frequent rewards until behavior is solid - usually using only hand/body cues at this point
2. Continue behavior while making reinforcements more random
3. Add in verbal command, fade hand/body signals if I want the dog to do the behavior on verbal only - continue random reinforcements
4. Gradually add in distractions and places, make rewards more frequent as dog adjusts, then back to more random reinforcements
5. Add in distance and time, if needed (as in stays, or behaviors expected at a distance). This is done slowly. I may move a foot away, OR ask for 10 seconds more (not at the same time, however) and then gradually stretch those out longer over a period of weeks or even months.

I also teach my dog movements that will discourage them from creeping foward at a distance. Since my thoughts are always of possibly doing advanced obedience (with a drop on recall and a drop on the signal exercise in utility) I teach my dog to down from a stand by rocking back and onto the stomach (sphinx-like down). I teach them this before they ever learn a sit, even. The sphinx-down encourages them to move backwards to lie down, which is absolutely valuable in keeping them from creeping forward during a distance down. I use the command "platz" for this specific behavior, and "down" for a more casual, curl on one hip type of down. If they're moving toward me and I say "platz!" they have to stop the forward movement and sink backwards in order to end up on the stomach. It's very effective and I will never train a dog again without teaching them this version of down first.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

crowjik

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#6
Thanks everyone for your replies. To answer a few of your questions:

I do sometimes train with treats on the table, or in some other place. However, usually I have kept them either in a pocket or in a hand behind my back. It sounds like something I should work on. How do you guys work with treats in places where you can't leave them elsewhere, for example on walks or in the corner store? (I don't constantly treat in these places; much less than in our formal training sessions, but I do like to have them on hand to reinforce good behavior).

Lynn, we do work on breaking eye contact. We have been at the point in the past (before this downslide, which I gather is normal) where I have been able to put Utiw in a sit, turn around, walk into another room, and tell him to lay down from where he can't see me.
And yes, we do have a break signal from stay. Although I do have to admit that that is one thing I have been failing on a little bit; sometimes I put Utiw in a stay during the course of the day while I'm doing something, and I push his limits a little bit without putting a lot of attention on him, and he changes position or gets up and walks away (especially happens in sit-stays, when he likes to lie down instead).

Melanie, thanks for your hints on reinforcement scheduling. I really wanted some help on that before keeping on in a way that wasn't the most conducive to learning. Also, could you give a little more detail on how you teach the "platz"? That is more or less what I'd like out of the down, although maybe it is best to have two separate commands for that and something more relaxed.

I guess what seems to me the tricky thing, which is probably completely a "feel" thing, is knowing when to move forward. If anyone has any more advice on how to deal with that I would greatly appreciate.

Steve
 

Xerxes

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#7
My questions are:
Does that sound like a reasonable way to fix the problem?

How long should I work with using hand signals before moving on to verbal? The few times that I did that with hand signals this morning everything was great, but I don't want to move on too fast and have to come back again.

Regarding reinforcement schedules, should I implement the reinforcement schedule at each step of the behavior (before adding distance, distractions, or duration), or should I only do it after certain progress? I'm not really sure on this, and I'm positive it's one of the reasons for some of the current difficulties. Also because I still need to work on being more consistent and systematic in training at all times, and not just during the three or four short formal sessions we do every day.

Thanks for your help,
Steve
I have a breed that is super independent and super smart as well. So first Kudos to you for training remote commands.

I'm working on remote downs in the field, and with the ultimate in distractions-squirrels. So I know what you are going through.

My first step in this matter would be to skip the behavior chain (sit-down-sit) and work exclusively on the desired behavior. But vary the reward. Not always food-reward with a quick game of tug, a 10 foot run around the yard with you, a session of howling...whatever your dog likes. My dog's reward for a down-stay is that he gets released to go sniff or chase after a critter. Food is a great motivator, but it can pale in comparison to a short but intense chase in a high prey drive dog.

Make both behaviors discriminate behaviors. Work your way out, distance wise, only when you get 100% compliance with each behavior. I'm out to 10 feet now, and it's taken about 4 months of training....2 minutes at a time, every 2nd or 3rd day. I don't train the same things 2 days in a row-the dog gets bored and frustrated with rote. This might be the case with your pup. I also don't train for the "sit." I'm not a big fan of it, neither is my pupper.
 

crowjik

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#8
Xerxes,
Thanks for your advice about cutting out the behavior chain and working the behavior every second or third day. I'm gonna see how we work that into our routine.

Regarding what you say about sit, though, for me it is pretty useful. We use that command whenever anyone is at the door or whenever we go to the store. Utiw seems to be more comfortable with that than with down in those situations. Down we use mainly (other than in training sessions) when I am doing things around the house and I want him to calm down and stay out of the way. This has been especially useful when preparing food.

Do you use down any time you want your dog to stay calm in the same place? Or do you use something like stand as well?

Steve
 

lives4dogshows

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#9
As to your question about how I work with treats when on walks etc. I just have them in my pocket, usually my right pocket because the dog is at my left. When I am teaching a new behavior I always used treats and a clicker. I love that positive way of training, then once my dog is getting the behavior down-pat I start alternating between a click/treat and prasie. After my dog is offering the behavior regularly I begin to attach a command.

Hope that helps a bit, sorry it's not that in-depth but I have to start on my world history paper...anyone want to do it for me??
 

Xerxes

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#10
Xerxes,

Regarding what you say about sit, though, for me it is pretty useful. We use that command whenever anyone is at the door or whenever we go to the store. Utiw seems to be more comfortable with that than with down in those situations. Down we use mainly (other than in training sessions) when I am doing things around the house and I want him to calm down and stay out of the way. This has been especially useful when preparing food.

Do you use down any time you want your dog to stay calm in the same place? Or do you use something like stand as well?

Steve
Sit is an awesome command. In my particular breed though, there is no cushioning between bone and ground in a "sit" position. If it's working for you, keep using it.

My boy is calm in most situations. For the most part he could care less about most dogs. There's a few that are in his "pack" and he'll go crazy for. I usually let him have his meet and greet, maybe a little play session and then it's a "leave it" and we head on our way.

In the house, while I'm preparing dinner or his food, he downs outside the threshold of the doorway. He knows he's not allowed in the kitchen while I'm preparing.

The main thing I've taught him outside, with distractions is that "the human is taller and sees farther than the dog." His trust in my ability to find critters is blinding. I snap my fingers to gain his attention and then give the hand signal for what I want him to do. We work almost exclusively in silence outside. It helps him to focus on me every few seconds.

I also agree with the majority of the posters here, your dog is about to go through an adolescent period when almost all training will go out the window. So be prepared to steel your resolve and keep those boundaries in place!
 

maybe532

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#11
I have a stubborn terrier and she is very unmotivated for recall. Our dog trainer suggested changing up the treats used so that she is always hoping for the good stuff. He suggested using some rotisserie chicken and I actually got her motivated enough to pass her CGC certification class-something I thought we might not pass. Several times during class she'd run for me during recall and at the last minute veer off. After using the chicken a few times she was way more interested in what I was doing. Dehydrated salmon also worked for her. Now she never knows what she's going to get, only that it might just be something worth listening to me for. I also learned my tone of voice has a huge effect, I have to deepen my voice and raise the volume of it for her to respond.
 

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