Question for pedigree buffs

Hopefully this isn't an ignorant question, I will try to make myself clear.

I would like to get another dog, whether it is next summer or the one after, I'm not sure, but it never hurts to look, right?

I've become enamored with a rare breed. A pretty darn rare breed. Probably less than 10 litters a year in North America, as far as I can tell. Before I go down the road further, in terms of contacting breeders, etc., I would like others' opinions.

I have two questions.

1) To what degree is common ancestry to be avoided?

2) What is the effect of repeat breedings on a small population?

For instance one breeder takes great pain to make certain that there is no common ancestors for 4 generations. However, there have been three repeat breedings. In such a small population, I would think that would make about 3% of the dogs in NA full brothers and sisters. Is this too much? Also, most of the breeding stock is still imported from Europe, but it's hardly a common breed there, either.

Another breeder I have looked at uses a sire that has grand-dams as full sisters. He is a great dog, and the dam would be from a separate line.

The breeders I have looked at both do all the health checks, etc. that I would expect or want. My only concern is the effects of a small population.

Are you planning on possibly getting into the breed to the extent that you might have a litter yourself some day? Or is this more of a general concern for the breed's well being?

If you are interested, this site here has a lot of very interesting information about population genetics and breeding.

American Livestock Breeds Conservancy

There aren't any dogs on the site, but the same principals of inbreeding and bottle necking apply in any population of animals. Back when I bred turkeys, I had 5 of the 40 known jersey buffs in the world. Talk about nerve wracking! Somehow we managed to make more and get them all into safe hands without the raccoons eating anybody. Though we did loose 9 sweetgrass poults.

ETA: What breed is it!?! You got me all curious.

Thank you for the link, Romy.

I have no plans to breed. I just want to make sure I would be supporting the right direction for the breed. There are too many breeds that have crossed the Atlantic only to be ruined here by poor or overproduction.

Should I say what breed? I don't want anyone thinking I'm casting aspersions. By every other measure the first impression for the breeders I've read about is positive. I'm just curious if any of the things I've mentioned throw up any red flags.

it never hurts to do research.

Alot of breeders do line breeding or in breeding to a certain extent.

Jazz's parents are half sibbing. I could go back into her pedigree and line breed again, but I am choosing to outcross.

If an experianced breeder is doing it it can be great. In the wrong hands it can be a disaster.

It also just depends. Lizzie's breeder repeated her breeding three times- but all but I think three of the pups were s/n'd. (Lizzie, a parti boy they retained, and a cream boy who went to a family in OH.) In a small breed where litters are 2-4 (and for some reason there are many more boys than girls- in 3 litters, there were only TWO female puppies!), it's very different from repeating a breeding of say, great danes with litters of 7-10! Lizzie's pedigree also looks only SOMEWHAT close until you go back further and realize that the original set of imports from Germany to the UK weren't numerous at all.

It also just plain depends on the breed. Lizzie is quite line-bred- much more so than my collies (it's one of the big factors for me in choosing to import a boy down the road- I want to bring in some lines from another part of the world)- but she's also in a breed with a MUCH lower incidence of health problems than many other breeds. The breed is not a popular one and never has been, and hopefully will be able to continue on into the future carefully maintained by a small pool of dedicated breeders.

Another factor is that while maintaining genetic diversity is important, diversity just to be diverse isn't terribly useful in actually isolating, identifying and removing genetic disease from the gene pool as I understand it- just in minimizing the number of affected animals while potentially increasing the number of carriers. A breeder who uses 'no common ancestors in four generations' as their sole method of controlling genetic disease would not be my first choice, and I'd want to hear about how this is supposed to improve type, health, and soundness. Are they breeding phenotype to phenotype? Or what? Are the only health problems in the breed things you can test for easily and which don't occur later in life?

I'm really curious what breed this is.

Thanks for your answer, DA. This is going to help me to know the right kind of questions to ask the breeders. I really getting the feeling that they're trying to do this right. By all appearances this is a healthy breed, and the concerns there are are all-breed concerns. I'll definitely be getting in touch with some breeders here and in Canada to ask them questions. And as for the breed...I'll keep y'all guessing. Because if I do decide to get one, I'll tell the world!

Well, guess for your own reasons you'd rather wait to "tell the world". But honestly, it would be a very good decision to at least tell this forum what breed you are considering ... and not just because some in the thread have expressed curiosity.

There are many on the Chaz forum who are very familiar with some pretty rare breeds ... you would be surprised! There are also breeders and others here who are very knowledgeable about canine genetics and health. Both groups would be an objective source for information, as well as helping you to ask the right questions of any breeder you may approach.

Coming from a rare breed, one point I would make is just because many in a litter go s/n doesn't always mean the litter failed if it was closely bred.

It also has to do with supply and demand. Being rare, homes aren't always lined up for blocks. To me, a good home is far more important than an intact dog or bitch.

From what I understand, line breeding done properly does not cause problems. I wouldn't worry if the breeders have the breeds best interest in mind, and are checking out otherwise with health tests etc.