Weaving Woes

Well, maybe not. I am a terribly impatient person after all, though I think I'm pretty patient with agility (so far!).

So I've been working with Popper using a 6 weave pole set. At first, I was using the luring method to get him to weave. Well, of course, he focused entirely upon the food and not what he was doing. So I bent the poles and tried that method. He didn't get much better.

So I did BAD Agility's method of using body language and stepping in the right spot at the right time, and after two tries, he caught on and now weaves through the poles I'd say 90% of the time without ANY luring at all.

So, here's my questions....
He's not particularly fast yet, which I am assuming (?) that he will get faster and faster, which is okay with me whether he's fast or slower. Of course a lot of it is how energetic *I* am, that definitely plays a big role. I've seen dogs weaving, he's certainly not the slowest.

I can't seem to get any DISTANCE from him on the weaves... how can I go about this? Right now I have to be right beside him.

Going with the distance thing, he doesn't know his left from his right, apparently. He *usually* enters the right direction... is this something he'll gain with experience?

Anyhow, thanks for your continued help... he really loves agility and it's a great way to spend time with him. I took a video yesterday of him weaving (and oh god I can see all the things I do wrong, so I may video myself more!!) that I might post as soon as photobucket decides to cooperate...

Ooooh one more question - there is an upcoming agility trial in December at my club.... we have not done teeters or weaves yet in class, but, do you suppose I could enter him in SOMETHING? Just for a little bit of fun/experience? I was reading the rules, and you could do a run-through with leash (he could *probably* do it off-leash, but as he's never done it before I'd be more comfortable on-leash), you just didn't get a time for doing it. Which I don't care about much anyway. Too soon, do you think?

Thats great you are having so much fun.

But don't be in a hurry. As your dog speeds up you will likely retrain weaves, sometimes repeatedly as he has to relearn entries at speed or not to skip poles.

I would make sure I have off side weaves before I worried about distance. I would make sure my dog could nail the entries no matter where I stood in relation to the poles first. Then start adding distance.

JRT stuff does on leash things. IMO if you are planning on trialing for real, I wouldn't' go for the on leash stuff. It can teach the dog to rely on leash in the ring. Also its hard not to catch equipment with the leash. The JRT club has special jumps that have no uprights to get caught for safety.

A great agility dog is years in the making even with the top trainers who go out and specifically get great agility prospects. So be patient! The joy is in the training the time you spend with your dog.

he can enter the poles correctly whether I am on the left or the right of him, provided I tell him which side to start on... I just point and sorta direct with my feet, and away he goes! So I guess I'm doing well on that front. I just worry because the next agility class is one they say you will probably have to repeat at least once... I dun wanna. I want to start the corgi in January, and the only way is to pass this class first time around, so I want as big of a head start as possible.

I'm glad to hear that it sounds like he's doing okay, though... I get worried since, as I said, class hasn't started weaves yet. We worked on speed today (I do a coupla five minute or so sessions each day) and I put it in a little mini course - he ZOOMED through it like a little border collie, I was SO PROUD! I gave him sooo many treats hehehe.

I am planning on trialing for real... I'll ask one of my instructors if they think he could at least attempt something off leash, for giggles. I figure my first time out I'll screw up so I might as well get it over with and learn from it. And if they say no, well, I guess I'll have to put my patience cap back on LOL!

Well ty for the help dekka I'm sure I'll need more help when I finally get a teeter!

Distance on the weaves is definitely one of the last things I would worry about. I've been in classes regularly for almost 3 years, and we don't have a ton with Meg (distance being her toughest skill always). We are working on adding in more distance this winter, but like Dekka said, I'd work more on getting them really, really reliable first.

Honestly? I wish I'd waited longer to trial Meg at all. We had about a year of weekly classes before our first trial. You want trials to be a fun, successful place for your dog. I think going in unprepared just makes it more stressful for you and for the dog. With my next dog, I will wait until I feel he can really put down a clear, focused round before I start trialing. Sure, things will inevitabley go wrong in the ring, but why not set yourself and your dog up for success as much as possible?

Would you like to know what the FIRST RULE of agility is for those who want to compete????

You don't compete until you and your dog have the skills of AT LEAST one level above the class or classes that you are entering.

So these are questions to answer for yourself as to your skills and your dogs skills.

Can you do ......

Front crosses
Rear crosses
Lead outs
Reverse Flow Pivots/False turns
Call Off's
Solid Contact behaviour
Lateral Distance on ALL the equipment.
Independant obstacle focus
Handler Focus
Obstacle Discrimination.
Body language and supporting lines

And do that plus much more, without your dog leaving you, getting the zoomies, sniffing or shutting down.
Can you run an Advanced and/or Masters/Elite/Excellence course consistantly and smoothly?

The next thing you need to ask is this.
Do you know HOW to run courses? How to break them down, where to do crosses, what the dogs line is, what the dog see's, your path?
Do you know the rules inside and out?

Is this a sanctioned trial or is it a fun match, big difference as to what you can do and what you can't.
If its a fun match, can you take reinforcers into the ring?

I also don't agree with the on leash running of a course, if a dog isn't trained well enough to safely run a course with you off leash, then the answer is no.

And this is coming from someone who started competing in agility before my first dog was ready and it cost me 2 YEARS in retraining and it still costs me to this day for missed contacts on the Dog walk and table performances. And missed entries on the weaves. Because once you get past the lowest level ALL that is faulted resulting in No Q's, which results in lots of money and time training for behaviours that should have been trained correctly in the first place and NOT trialing too soon.

Suzzie,
Look we are not trying to rain on your parade or to discourage you.

But I want to tell you what I saw less than a month ago at an open agility trial. I have been going to this trial for years and its the same story each and every year. I go for fun and it also gives my family or non dog friends a chance to see us compete. I also don't take my students there but the reasons why are a different story.

It starts with another 'trainer' that shows up with a bunch of students. Those are usually the new crop of the year (keep in mind we don't see any advanced students but a couple at regular sanctioned trials and their performances are not much better, sadly.)

I would guess that these students have just a couple of months to maybe a years worth of training on them. In my opinion, very sub standard training to boot, which doesn't help.

It's sad, they can't get around the courses, many of the dogs that are of herding breds ALL spin, bark and nip (in one case down right attack the handlers feet BEFORE and AFTER each obstacle), dogs out of control or shut down. Most of them also eliminated in the ring and often in every class they went in. Thats stress by the way. And there is no doubt that both the handler and the dogs don't know their jobs.

And it's pitful to watch the handlers, they have not been taught body language, their arms are all over the place and often they are using the wrong arm to tell their dogs where to go. Dogs run past equipment, handlers getting stressed and results with incomplete runs or the dog trying to leave the ring.
And as each year goes by we don't see those handlers and their dogs at any trials. I suspect that they gave up, left so frustrated and upset. Its a shame, because if they had received the correct training in the first place and their trainer wouldn't have encouraged them to compete on any level before they were ready, the out come could have been much different.

Lynn

I see a lot of people like Lynn described around here (heck, some are friends of mine). The thing that always strikes me is that these are the same people who constantly say things like "I just do agility for fun" or "I hate people who take this too seriously (often directed towards me)". They may do one class here or there throughout the year, and just do a few trials a year.

And the thing is - neither they or their dogs look like they are having fun. The dogs are off performing various stressful displacement behaviors, the owners are pleading with them to come back, focus, etc. They run past obstacles like the weaves that they don't know, and I can't help but think about the issues they will have in the future if they ever really want to train them.

Maybe I'm oversensitive to it because I have a dog who really does have to be having fun or she gets worried and shuts down, but I think it must suck for those dogs. Take the time to really prepare. Go into the ring KNOWING that you and your dog have the skills needed to get around. Agility is way, way more fun then.

good points AdoJRTs, and BB.

Suzzie can you put a sequence of, jump tunnel weaves jump and RUN them really fast and get your entries from both sides? Then how about if the weaves are angled and the dog has to find the entries? If your dog can nail the entries at full speed 99% of the time from all angles without needing your body cue then work on distance.

sheesh lol it was an awfully, uhh, enthusiastic? response hehe... don't worry, i'll stick to backyard agility for now... I'm pretty sure (as I could possibly be, anyway) Popper could do okay in Jumpers or something, but I, myself, do not have the handling skills at this point to be able to adequately direct him. After all, a little course of eight in the backyard is different from a full blown agility course!

dekka, he actually does better if i set up a series of obstacles and then have him weave (excitement really gets him going!). But he can't find the entry on his own without my assistance at this point. Once he's in, he's pretty much golden. I was watching some videos on teaching entry but they just didn't seem that it made it clear to the dog... but then again, the dogs always did it correctly. When I watched the video that *I* took of Popper weaving, I was astonished at how much attention Popper pays to ME. I had thought, from classes, that he paid attention only when convenient... so I should probably be very careful about him being too overly dependent on ME telling him which side to enter on? Work more on him discovering it himself?

I guess we'll just keep practicing weaving on both sides... the class may have a method of teaching the dog to learn the entry point so I suppose I'll have to put on my patience hat and wait. But at least he understands the concept of weaving. So we're a little ahead of the game anyway....

I am doing this for fun.. well, as I said before, the series of classes takes at least a year and a half, so it's serious fun... plus we practice every day or so... but if Popper misses something when and if we finally do get to run at a trial, I really don't think I'll get horribly upset about it (maybe just disappointed in myself) or care if he wins (okay maybe a bit). As long as we're both having a great time (his happiness is infectious!) and spending time together, we're happy.

so any more weaving advice, fire away.

I'm not sure if I ever really spent time teaching entries with Meg. We pretty much free-shaped them (the article on weaving in the Pig's Fly series in Clean Run was almost exactly what we did). It was simply a matter of rewarding the correct entries and ignoring the wrong ones. Meg's entries are very strong. Even at top speed, she hits them; she may occasionally miss the third pole if she really drives in at top speed, but the entries are pretty much a given.

The place I practice at during the summer has a great set of twelve weaves on those really nice bases that allow the poles to slide outwards individually to make a channel. I've been leaving them a bit apart to really work on her speed and WOW. I put them all the way in today and she is flying!

It's so hard to tell online if people are being joking or serious. I'm not sure if you were offended or put out by the responses. But keep in mind, these are the "been there, done that" voices speaking. Granted I've been there done that less than either Dekka or Lynn, but I was in your shoes exactly two years ago. I wanted to trial so badly, and figured it was fine if it didn't go as planned - I just wanted to do it! I'm two years smarter now, and have been lucky enough to work with some very good trainers and other handlers. I know now what I want to do with my future dogs, and they won't be trialing until we are running nice masters type courses at home.

i know for sure that the club teaches weaves by that method, the channel method... so I guess that'll improve his speed then!

i will start rewarding the good entries and ignoring the bad. That's going to interrupt his weaving though, isn't it? What I normally do, when he doesn't do the correct entry on his own (or misses a pole occasionally, etc) is not say a word, go back to the beginning, and try again. That would make his reward weaving, I suppose - would that work? He has always gotten a tidbit at the end (of weaving, anyway, since we're still learning). The club is all about positive reinforcement (which is REALLY hard for me - because I will go AT! sharply when he does something wrong - trying to break the habit, they don't want us to do that).

I am VERY high strung so I sometimes get offended by things even when no offense was intended. That's why I didn't post again last night, I wanted to take a day to sit on it and think it over because I KNOW the folks on here keep the dogs in their best interest.

And then end result is, I'm not offended. If I hadn't wanted advice, I suppose I shouldn't have asked. But I did (and still do) want advice, so please offer it freely. You'll just know if I don't post back right away that I'm still contemplating what you said LOL!

but I WILL say that the agility trial is actually in the same room we practice in, run by the same people that teach us, and on the same equipment... I just figured Popper would see it as another "agility class" since it's almost the same but with a judge and more onlookers (fenced away) but I guess I was pretty wrong hehehe. Oh well, it's not the end of the world.

We trialled too early.. with what amounted to no weaves.

Took classes for a year weekly, got a great foundation, were learning, but in the end switching it up and hearing other peoples theories was needed. Original trainers wanted to do 2x2 weaving. A great method, but really you need your own set to practice. We bought plungers and tried to work at home. In the end after weeks of practicing we were further ahead than the class, but not enough to have anything resembling weaving.

15 minutes in class a week wasn't enough to be solidifying it it seemed. They decided we'd all start luring instead. I got frustrated.. Everything else had come together, so we started trialling.

I didn't have people to get advice from.. so really it was 'good' for us as I became friends with Dekka our first trial and her advice helped a lot, so did switching it up often and training with multiple people.

I bought 2x2s and they've helped on entrances a lot. Clicking entrances or simply in the poles for nice weaving has gone a long way for us. Sadly, trialling is addictive. We plowed through many starters classes with wimpy handler based weaves... I then went oh d@mn as we were in advanced and the criteria of what was allowable weaves had changed. I suppose I could wimp out call her to me heel to the weaves and nail the entrance, but we don't. One trainer really wanted us to stop trialling while we corrected things, but the success is addictive.. We ended up having more success with her help while still trialling which didn't make me want to stop.

We've worked hard for the last year and a half on distance skills and better performance all around, but every session works on weaving. A few months ago I was thrilled we finally seemed to have it. Nailing our entries from every position, my position ceased to matter. (we had been able to nail a set of 12 weaves for months.. once in the poles.. the entry was always a pain) and then we sped up yet again.. when we were fast to begin with and we are reworking the process.

The entries we had been nailing we now often don't as she doesn't see the poles till she passes a few.. and if we do nail it, we often skip a pole in the middle or near the end, never the same pole twice. She's so fast I don't think she notices. So back to clicking for things I like to see far before a complete set of weaves.

Have to say I'm disappointed and hate weaves But they honestly can come and go. We have 3 advanced Qs left to attain, and already have some masters Qs. We have pulled it together along the way, but weaves sadly aren't magical and stick necessarily once you have them.

If Cider misses the entry, or skips a pole I call her back when it happens. I don't want her practicing the wrong way to weave if I can help it as she doesn't often seem to understand why she's not treated at the end of a set of weaves if I don't catch the mistake when it happens. They end up weaving the wrong poles in the wrong way depending what is skipped, and ending on the opposite side of the weaves then where they belong. May not matter, but I figure to a point the repetition can be muscle memory and don't want the wrong memory begin built.

i agree with the memory muscle thing... one of my instructors told me to always practice with an even number of poles. I guess she was doing 9 at her home, and when she went to a trial the dog would skip the last one every time (used to exiting on the wrong side). She got three more poles, worked with the dog a bit, and it went back to doing the entire set.

I am curious, does your instructor know that you have started training the weaves on your own and the method you are using? Correct me if I am wrong but I think you said that you haven't started training weaves in class yet.

well, i have multiple instructors...
but yes I have told them we're training weaves. I ask them for advice too, but you guys are always on hand. It was one of my teachers who told me to always use an even number of poles. I also discussed with her getting a teeter eventually and we chatted about that as well. Tonight's the last class before we start the teeter/weaves class.

We're having problems with out poles as well. If I have her on leash and bring her to the poles she weaves's awesomly... has even started doing the bouce. Forget about her entrances or trying to send her too them.