Remote retrieve demonstration with GSD

I have always hated the idea of causing dogs pain, discomfort, intimidation in order to train them.

That is fair, you're definitely not in the minority so don't sweat it, then on the flip side there are times that correction is warranted and the use of e collars can be extremely helpful.

I just hate the idea of throwing a tool out due to misuse by some.

We all know there are people who've damaged their dogs using GLs & Haltis but I use them at work daily and have yet to hurt a dog.

I also have a training friend who leaves her dog in the house/yard almost all day every day because she can't control the dog outside of the home and refuses to use any corrective measures beyond the love, hugs, & cookies method.

Truthfully every tool/method can be flawed in the wrong hands, it's balance that work in most every aspect of life IMO.

Well I've worked with some pretty difficult cases and have never had to use an e collar on a dog to modify behavior there are too many successful trainers who don't use electricity on animals...even animals that are not as biddable. One of my mares was quite advanced in her training. Electric shock would have sent her to the moon. Lol!

We don't use them for behavioral modification, most of the time that is the wrong choice.

Most in sports use them for distance control in bitework, where the bite itself is self gratifying, and field trials, again where the distance denies hands on and the retrieve itself gratifies more than a withheld reward. It's all in the proofing, not the training, but it's definitely a to-each-their-own subject as long as you're not making wild claims that anyone who owns an ecollar is abusive.

I laughed pretty hard with a friend last weekend while she was picking up half of my garage for rescue donations and she opened a drawer to find ecollars and clickers stored together. The painful irony of my life, they won't know where to send me when I die.

I guess I have sort of a hippy philosophy about our role in the lives of animals we keep for our enjoyment...a different place where the line is drawn...what is necessary or not. I just don't believe in electric shock for animals. But that's just me and my own feelings about these precious creatures.

I totally agree with this....BUT, (and NOT saying anyone who uses an e-collar is wrong and using them correctly is vastly different from using them like SMS) the difference is misusing a halti or GL etc, yes, can hurt a dog. An e-collars function is to hurt a dog. Yes, I know people claim that it just buzzes, or its just a "tickle" but obviously it hurts enough to be a correction or it wouldnt work.

The lady who cant control her dog...not using corrections isnt her problem. Many people who dont use physical corrections have dogs with wonderful house manners, she is just not doing anything to train. I know people who do use corrections and ecollars and the like and have no control...its poor execution or not understanding motivation etc.

Balance is key...but balance doenst have to include corrections to be balance. Showing what you do want, managing and redirecting what you dont want, having rules, etc...those are all part of balance.

(and again, I am not trying to debate training styles etc...its just I see similar sentiment often and dont think its true. If you want to use corrections in certain situations, or an ecollar, fine, but its NOT needed, especially in things like bitework etc that has nothing to so with living with the dog and everything to do with what we want from the dog for us)

No worries, I am very comfortable with having extremely happy dogs and using ecollars for selective aspects of training. To each their own, I believe in balanced training and I believe there are times where a correction is warranted as the consequence for an action and I believe the level of correction should change per dog per exercise.

The system falls apart when you're forcing a dog into an action, before they understand, with discomfort, no matter if it's hands on or with a correction collar. Which unfortunately is the model which SMS follows.

I agree with Adrianne and think she's done a really good job of explaining why they are useful in certain situations.

I've honestly not had to use them because well I have rescues and we are nowhere near that far along in training because of that. Next dog I probably will have to use one for proofing distance work.

I think its kind of like saying all people who tie their dogs out or all people who crate are abusive. Its just not true, these things are just tools and its how you use them (or don't) that makes it productive and detrimental.

You mean before the dog understands but when he understands and he doesn't do it he's just being stubborn, right...so an aversive seems warranted. See...to me understands doesn't matter. The fact is if he did it right a few times but doesn't do it this time, he is needing more practice, not an aversive. Stubborn, willful, all that human stuff doesn't apply to dogs. They just need more instances of reinforcement. Jmo

Wouldn't surprise me one bit! There is a SMS video on Youtube of an 8 year old girl working a Mal, remote in hand of course.


I always thought they used Dogtra! I know someone online who got into e-collars after working with Fred Hassen and she was a big Dogtra supporter. I'm kinda surprised they use crappy collars.

Defining poorly done positive training as "love, hugs and cookies method" is about as unfair as implying everyone who uses e-collars is using them like SMS. Being too permissive and/or inconsistent is a common mistake people make training dogs regardless of which methods they prefer. If a method is used improperly, inconsistently and without skill you can't really blame the method if the results are poor, inconsistent and lacking.

I don't think I referred badly to positive training at all, I referred to someone who is unwilling to train because they are uncomfortable with causing discomfort to their dog in any sense. I didn't mean to say they are a PP trainer, if you took it that way I apologize for the confusion.

I laughed at Adrienne I have ecollars in with clickers. My Jeep has a bag that's got my ecollars and remotes and then all of my clickers and haltis in it. Plus various food items.

We also get business because of SMS. There's a right and a wrong way to use just about every dog training tool there is.

I've run into clients, and we have one right now actually, who are ADAMANT that they do NOT want to use a prong collar on their dog. But they're totally okay with putting an ecollar on the dog. I don't see the logic? Most of it is misinformation, some of it is probably because a prong looks scary, and then some of it is just ignorance. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But you can pop a dog with an ecollar way harder than you could ever correct a dog with a prong, so it's just ????

I choose to use an ecollar because no amount of withholding cookies is going to stop him from wanting the sleeve. No amount of cookies is going make him hold and down with the helper facing off with him and he knows that he's going to get sent for a bite in a minute. I know that it can be done positively, though I haven't ever seen it myself, but Knox is a lot more "tell me what you want me to do" than he is "let me figure this out myself"

He makes a **** poor Nosework dog because he is constantly looking for feedback. It may be the way I trained him, it may just be the kind of dog he is. Indy is being trained the same way he is/was, and she's excelling at scent work and tracking, whereas Knox gets frustrated and just starts knocking boxes over.

Anyways, that's just my take on it. I didn't understand the hand in the mouth thing either? But all of my dogs either knew how to retrieve, and had no problems fetching a dumbbell, or I shaped them to retrieve (Enzo, actually, the Labrador RETRIEVER, had to be taught to fetch lmao) none of which involved me putting anything in their mouth and shocking them.

Ugh, I have a client right now who walked and looked at a lab (4 year old, best shape I've met, high anxiety but an amazingly devoted owner) with a prong and cringed. I WOULD NEVER!! Okay, so, what can I do for you? Well, we're planning on putting our 7 month old lab/rott/mastiff to sleep because he doesn't listen and he bites too much.

Sorry? I instantly dislike you, say no more.

Pretty much any training tool can be abused and use of it improperly/excessively can be inhumane certainly.

The prong - paired with training - has been great in teaching Katalin. It makes things much more black and white for her and communication very clear.

I try to teach that if desired behavior is shown, correct manners displayed etc - great stuff happens, treats and praise and pets galore. However - I won't be tolerant of dicking around, disrespect, or foolish behavior either. It's not intimidation, threats, or anything nasty - it's simply a correction when needed.

The totally positive method of training where you just ignore or leave the dog alone after they've done something wrong is...erm...well, every dog is an individual so I'll leave it at that.

An example is Katalin several months back - she was lunging, jumping, biting and growling at me randomly on walks. The trainers advice of tying her to a tree or turning my back on her didn't help an iota. I redirected her through jogging and it did help - I was unsure of giving her a leash correction as it wasn't "positive" as my previous trainer had told me to be. But the behavior halted altogether after I gave her abit of a yank. We are still on the positive side of things - but it's much clearer to her now that I will not put up with any bs.

The thing that gets me is the misunderstanding that with positive reinforcement training is that there are no consequences whats so ever. There is, however I choose not to use harsh corrections, but that by no means that once a dog has fully learned and been proofed on something that if the dog choices to ignore that all is good. Not on your life.
I have a problem when trainers put prongs on puppies, ridiculous. That is like using a hammer to kill a fly. And I firmly believe that most people don't have the skill and education to use them properly. Having said that, I have seen just as many ppl use a flat collar as a weapon and that isn't right either
Ecollars? again for the most part they are abused and used by the uneducated and without discretion. And no I don't own one or use them

It sounds like your friend in this scenario isn't doing much training at all though? She just avoids training by leaving the dogs at home so she doesn't have to deal with them behaving like untrained dogs?

This is the situation with many pet owners sadly enough. Their dog pulls so they stop walking them. The dog isn't behaved loose in the house for 9 hours a day by 6 months so they are banished to one room or the basement or the backyard. The dog gets carsick, so they stop taking them in the car. Dog doesn't like being brushed, so they let them get matted and take them to the groomer. I have talked to people who wanted to surrender their dog to the shelter because the dog steals food, doesn't come when called, gets into the garbage, etc, etc. Given easy problem solving solutions, some were able to work things out but some refused to try even the most basic non-aversive management for the problems.

Withholding cookies would be a pretty silly way to attempt to use positive training in bitework. Really there is so, so much more to positive training then giving treats for being good and withholding treats for being bad. That is Petsmart style positive training and barely scratches the surface of the possibilities.

I think humans require force to train, not dogs. And I don't mean that as an insult, I just mean that the factors that lead me to use force have much more to do with myself and my real-life limitations than the dog. I own a prong although I don't know where it is, and I also own a Dogtra. Used both and both can be very helpful in certain situations. But I don't believe that the dog makes me do it or that I "have" to do it. It's a choice.


No one with any sort of skill would tell you that "withholding cookies" is the way to get him to those things. That is not what good positive training is about. To suggest so is just... skimming the surface of what positive training is. Any capable trainer would realize that what is motivating Knox in those scenarios is the sleeve, and would then redesign the scenario in such a way to set him up for success and reward him with the bite. I imagine that to do so would take quite a bit of skill and knowledge but it's certainly possible (I know of at least two SCHIII dogs trained without force) - and goes far beyond "withholding cookies".

That perception/grave misunderstanding of the basis of positive training drives me nuts. I'm not bothered by the thoughtful, careful use of aversives but I am bothered by the idea that all positive trainers do is doll out and take away the ever-derogatory "cookies."

No, and that's not what I meant either. I know how to use marker training, and do quite a bit of it. That was my fault for simplifying it so... something.

Anyway. Not exactly how I meant it. My bad.

And I've tried quite a few creative ways to avoid using punishment with him. Some of them work. Some of them dont.

I can't quote my own post on my phone but I think I specifically said " unwilling to train" due to being uncomfortable with causing discomfort, and so forth.

I don't think it's profound to believe that training, in any form, is a choice.

Sloan is motivated by the adrenaline rush of the charge, bite, and fight.

The helper dropping the sleeve and walking away works wonderfully on Backup bailing on a search and heading into a live blind, Sloan however looks at the sleeve and laughs maniacally before charging in and launching to bite the helper. Flesh > Sleeve, nom.

Knox also doesn't care. It's not the sleeve he really wants. Given the chance/choice, he'd much rather grab a leg or something soft and squishy.


What we do/ have done, is he leaves the field if he breaks. Goes back into the crate, or the back of the Jeep. It's not perfect, and if he breaks, he's over threshold so quickly it's ridiculous.