Pregnant mini dachshund belly!
- Thread starter mmorlino
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What do you mean by "that way?" My litter (well, if you can call a singleton a litter LOL) right now is raised in a "home environment." This wouldn't change whether I only planned for just this one this year, or more. Even if I decided to keep my dogs in a kennel environment, I would still whelp litters in a part of my home where they are easily monitored and am able to keep a closer eye on the progression of the litter in addition to the health of the puppies (and mom). No reputable breeder is going to risk the health of their litter and mom, and even if they are breeding on a small scale, or a larger than average, it still takes the same amount of money, time, and energy.
Just because you breed more than two litters a year doesn't mean you are counting each puppy like stock. Just because you breed more than two litters a year doesn't mean you aren't still striving to produce the best.
I don't think any reputable breeder would say they "try" to have multiple litters a year. But when a bitch of theirs is ready to be bred (titled, health tested, healthy, etc. etc.), and they have (like I said above) the time, energy, and money to do so. . . why should they wait? Because someone might call them unreputable? That's ridiculous. Also, what do you mean by "waiting for the right pairings?" I don't know of anyone who waits, but rather seeks out an appropriate sire for their bitch. I wish I could wait and the "right" pair would show up on my doorstep, would make life ten times easier I imagine LOL
Just because you breed more than two litters a year doesn't mean you are counting each puppy like stock. Just because you breed more than two litters a year doesn't mean you aren't still striving to produce the best.
I don't think any reputable breeder would say they "try" to have multiple litters a year. But when a bitch of theirs is ready to be bred (titled, health tested, healthy, etc. etc.), and they have (like I said above) the time, energy, and money to do so. . . why should they wait? Because someone might call them unreputable? That's ridiculous. Also, what do you mean by "waiting for the right pairings?" I don't know of anyone who waits, but rather seeks out an appropriate sire for their bitch. I wish I could wait and the "right" pair would show up on my doorstep, would make life ten times easier I imagine LOL
I am fairly new here, so I do not know the full story with the OP, so I am not trying to defend her... and I am not trying to attack her either, as I do not know the full story of her breeding practices, however I thought I would reply to a few of these posts that caught my attention...
First.. I do breed. I have been owning/showing Collies for 15 yrs (started showing in 1994 at the age of 12). I didn't breed my first litter until 2003. After finding the type and family I liked, and purchased a couple dogs to really start showing and for future breeding plans...
I'm not really following how one would think a maximum amount of litters a bitch should have in her life time is 3?? How did you come up with that number? What if she only has 1 or 2 puppies in each litter? I think as long as the bitch isn't being bred every season, and is in excellent condition, healthy, happy, and a good representation of the breed, someone who breeds a bitch more than 3 times in her lifetime should not be considered a BYB breeder.
I have 7 Collies right now, all of them are bitches as a matter of fact. I've only had 1 litter this year (May 2009 -- it was a singleton litter).. Yes I do have a "Kennel" for the dogs, however my dogs are raised in the house and spend a lot of time in the house. I try to leave them outside much of the day (weather permitting) as they love to be outside, but they are also great house dogs, and I usually have a few sleeping on the bed each night, as well as others sleeping in other parts of the house -- couch, dog beds etc...
Though, as long as the dogs are happy, well taken care of, socialized and you spend time with them, I have no problem with people keeping dogs in a kennel. When did having a kennel for your dogs become a bad thing? I know many many reputable breeders who have various kennel setups.
As far as the number of litters a year go, I've never had more than 1-2 litters a year, and I prefer to keep it that way, but I'm not going to say I'll never have more than a litter or two a year..... but I work for professional handlers, handlers who have bred/owned/handled BIS winning shelties, as well as ASSA futurity winners, who have 5-6 litters last year. They co-own most of their dogs, and get them back for litters at various times. I've whelped many of their litters for them, while they were off at shows, others were whelped/raised by the co-owners. They haven't had even 1 litter this year. They found stud dogs they felt fit their bitches and they bred them. It doesn't make them less reputable because they had more than one litter last year. It doesn't make the litters less planned.
I don't wait for a stud dog that would work with one of my bitches, to present himself. Every time I go to a dog show I watch the other entries, looking at the other males... looking for the next stud dog that I felt would work with this bitch, or that bitch...
Exactly! I totally agree with this!
The breeding on a larger scale, with more than 1 litter a year, can, and is achieved by several excellent breeders I know! I personally wouldn't want multiple litters a year, but I am certainly not going to judge someone who does have multiple litters per year if they are doing it the right way!... the breedings are well thought out and planned, the parents are titled and healthy....
Again, I'm not sure how having multiple litters a year means a reputable breeder isn't waiting for the right pairing??? I'm not saying what the OP is doing is reputable, but that doesnt mean every breeder who has 2-3-4 litters a year, aren't planning these litters out! As I said before, every time I go to a dog show, or read through Collie Expressions magazine, or look at Colliesonline I am look at the dogs... look at the studs, what the stud are producing and think "hmm.. how would he work with this bitch"... and many times it's "why would anyone breed to that??" or "OMG, how did that finish!" I'm very picky and hard on the dogs I choose to breed...
I have a 4yr old rough bitch who has never been bred. I bred her and co-own her, she has been living with her other owner since she was 12 wks old. She came back to me this summer so we could finish her Champion -- she came to me needing 3 singles to finish, she picked up 12 pts and both majors as a youngster in about 5 wkends of showing, then her owner had a baby (now 2yrs)... and is now pregnant for the second time.. so she has been unable to get her out to shows to finish, so she came to me to get her finished and then we'll breed her. She picked up 2 points the first weekend I showed her, then dumped all her coat, so she is now sitting on 1 single point to finish! We'll breed her this winter whenever she comes in season though!
Again, I know people who are out showing almost every weekend, who have multiple litters. It is possible to be a reputable breeder, who is showing/training working their dogs, and have more than a couple litters a year..
First.. I do breed. I have been owning/showing Collies for 15 yrs (started showing in 1994 at the age of 12). I didn't breed my first litter until 2003. After finding the type and family I liked, and purchased a couple dogs to really start showing and for future breeding plans...
I'm not really following how one would think a maximum amount of litters a bitch should have in her life time is 3?? How did you come up with that number? What if she only has 1 or 2 puppies in each litter? I think as long as the bitch isn't being bred every season, and is in excellent condition, healthy, happy, and a good representation of the breed, someone who breeds a bitch more than 3 times in her lifetime should not be considered a BYB breeder.
I have 7 Collies right now, all of them are bitches as a matter of fact. I've only had 1 litter this year (May 2009 -- it was a singleton litter).. Yes I do have a "Kennel" for the dogs, however my dogs are raised in the house and spend a lot of time in the house. I try to leave them outside much of the day (weather permitting) as they love to be outside, but they are also great house dogs, and I usually have a few sleeping on the bed each night, as well as others sleeping in other parts of the house -- couch, dog beds etc...
Though, as long as the dogs are happy, well taken care of, socialized and you spend time with them, I have no problem with people keeping dogs in a kennel. When did having a kennel for your dogs become a bad thing? I know many many reputable breeders who have various kennel setups.
As far as the number of litters a year go, I've never had more than 1-2 litters a year, and I prefer to keep it that way, but I'm not going to say I'll never have more than a litter or two a year..... but I work for professional handlers, handlers who have bred/owned/handled BIS winning shelties, as well as ASSA futurity winners, who have 5-6 litters last year. They co-own most of their dogs, and get them back for litters at various times. I've whelped many of their litters for them, while they were off at shows, others were whelped/raised by the co-owners. They haven't had even 1 litter this year. They found stud dogs they felt fit their bitches and they bred them. It doesn't make them less reputable because they had more than one litter last year. It doesn't make the litters less planned.
I don't wait for a stud dog that would work with one of my bitches, to present himself. Every time I go to a dog show I watch the other entries, looking at the other males... looking for the next stud dog that I felt would work with this bitch, or that bitch...
Ummm, no, not always a kennel operation. Some breeders co-own numerous bitches (which doesn't necessarily mean they live with them at all times).
Sorry, but I also don't think it's all that horrible for some dogs to live in a kennel environment (most set ups aren't what people think when they here "kennel." A common setup I have seen are those who are crated inside the home, and brought outside to runs during the day). Personally, so long as attention IS given, they receive plenty of exercise and mental stimulation, and most importantly the dog is happy, healthy and thriving, I won't get my panties in a bunch.
I guess we will just agree to disagree then
But why can't that be achieved even on a larger scale (more than one litter every year)?
Sorry, but I also don't think it's all that horrible for some dogs to live in a kennel environment (most set ups aren't what people think when they here "kennel." A common setup I have seen are those who are crated inside the home, and brought outside to runs during the day). Personally, so long as attention IS given, they receive plenty of exercise and mental stimulation, and most importantly the dog is happy, healthy and thriving, I won't get my panties in a bunch.
I guess we will just agree to disagree then
But why can't that be achieved even on a larger scale (more than one litter every year)?
Exactly! I totally agree with this!
The breeding on a larger scale, with more than 1 litter a year, can, and is achieved by several excellent breeders I know! I personally wouldn't want multiple litters a year, but I am certainly not going to judge someone who does have multiple litters per year if they are doing it the right way!... the breedings are well thought out and planned, the parents are titled and healthy....
Again, I'm not sure how having multiple litters a year means a reputable breeder isn't waiting for the right pairing??? I'm not saying what the OP is doing is reputable, but that doesnt mean every breeder who has 2-3-4 litters a year, aren't planning these litters out! As I said before, every time I go to a dog show, or read through Collie Expressions magazine, or look at Colliesonline I am look at the dogs... look at the studs, what the stud are producing and think "hmm.. how would he work with this bitch"... and many times it's "why would anyone breed to that??" or "OMG, how did that finish!" I'm very picky and hard on the dogs I choose to breed...
I have a 4yr old rough bitch who has never been bred. I bred her and co-own her, she has been living with her other owner since she was 12 wks old. She came back to me this summer so we could finish her Champion -- she came to me needing 3 singles to finish, she picked up 12 pts and both majors as a youngster in about 5 wkends of showing, then her owner had a baby (now 2yrs)... and is now pregnant for the second time.. so she has been unable to get her out to shows to finish, so she came to me to get her finished and then we'll breed her. She picked up 2 points the first weekend I showed her, then dumped all her coat, so she is now sitting on 1 single point to finish! We'll breed her this winter whenever she comes in season though!
Again, I know people who are out showing almost every weekend, who have multiple litters. It is possible to be a reputable breeder, who is showing/training working their dogs, and have more than a couple litters a year..
As a breeder I don't look highly on people doing it large. I have seen too many dogs who spend their whole lives in a kennel or on the road. There is a number of dogs you can have and still work with them. (at the moment we have 10 dogs.. and no they don't all get the attention they deserve.. but thats another story)
IME breeders who breed multiple litters a year are either brb in it for the money, or show breeders in it for the glory. What I mean by the last is they breed lots of pups hoping to get a spectacular pup, vs having to be very good at pairings. (I think you should want to keep one out of every litter)
There are some JRT breeders out there who produce fairly healthy nice dogs who win well at conformation and who make good pets. BUT they pump out so many that they saturate the (pet) market. The issue with that is two fold. Genetics, pure breeds need more genetic diversity not less. And two it cuts down on the dogs who are rescued. I have helped place far more JRTs from the rescue than I have bred by far.
To me breeding ethically not only involves health testing, titling, and proving your lines, its also a matter of looking out for the welfare of dogs in general, not just the dogs in your little corner of the dog world.
IME breeders who breed multiple litters a year are either brb in it for the money, or show breeders in it for the glory. What I mean by the last is they breed lots of pups hoping to get a spectacular pup, vs having to be very good at pairings. (I think you should want to keep one out of every litter)
There are some JRT breeders out there who produce fairly healthy nice dogs who win well at conformation and who make good pets. BUT they pump out so many that they saturate the (pet) market. The issue with that is two fold. Genetics, pure breeds need more genetic diversity not less. And two it cuts down on the dogs who are rescued. I have helped place far more JRTs from the rescue than I have bred by far.
To me breeding ethically not only involves health testing, titling, and proving your lines, its also a matter of looking out for the welfare of dogs in general, not just the dogs in your little corner of the dog world.
I find this thread really interesting...
For me.. people who breed multiple litters, I don't think you can group them into just two categories. I'm sure many are BYB, and I do know of show breeders who breed a lot for the Glory. But I wouldn't say all of them are either one or the other...
I think it also depends on the breed as well! Some breeds are harder to breed true to type.... for one reason or another.
I have collies, but sort of work for sheltie breeders (and professional collie/sheltie handlers)... My experience with shelties is limited. My information is based on a few breeders who I have talked to or known who breed them. All of them basically say the same thing. As far as dog breeds go, Shelties are fairly young... they really do not breed true yet... which is why you get the crazy size range in the breed.. among other things. You can take two champions, whose pedigrees look like they should go together... the two dogs cross fault each other... correct size, health tested...and physically it looks like a good match, and you can end up with a whole litter of pets... either they are to big, or to small, or any other various issues.
The breeders I know do keep puppies from each litter to grow out... or at the very least place the dog on co-ownership... sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't... sometimes they keep the wrong puppy, and the one they sell turns out to be the best!
I'm not saying I would want to have 2-3-4-5 litters a year! I wouldn't want to, and couldn't do it.. but I do know of some who do... I had two litters last year, 3 months apart and that was more than enough work for me!! Though the litters turned out nice! They are in both pet, show and performance homes!... I've had just the singleton litter this year.... and I have to say having just one puppy was nice! Plus the breeding really clicked, as she is a beautiful bitch (now 7 months old!)... it's a breeding I planned for almost 2 yrs!!
I didn't say they were all one or the other, just in my experience they do fall into one or the other catagories.
Shelties are not that young as breeds go and are one of the most inbred breeds I know of (to the point I worry where they are going). If they don't breed true now.. well that just illustrates my next point.
There is more to breeding than knowing pedigrees. You need to have a basic understanding of how genetics works, and to have an idea of what traits in your breed are multiallelic, which are dominant, etc etc. I find many breeders, even those who produce champions have some very strange ideas about how genetics work. Yet they breed in such quantity they win the genetic lottery often enough.
If they were limited to how much they would breed it would force them to be more choosey and learn more. Though that is not to say you still won't get some throw backs even when breeding intelligently.
The breeders you speak of who co own dogs and 'grow them out' do they do other things with their dogs other than conformation?
Shelties are not that young as breeds go and are one of the most inbred breeds I know of (to the point I worry where they are going). If they don't breed true now.. well that just illustrates my next point.
There is more to breeding than knowing pedigrees. You need to have a basic understanding of how genetics works, and to have an idea of what traits in your breed are multiallelic, which are dominant, etc etc. I find many breeders, even those who produce champions have some very strange ideas about how genetics work. Yet they breed in such quantity they win the genetic lottery often enough.
If they were limited to how much they would breed it would force them to be more choosey and learn more. Though that is not to say you still won't get some throw backs even when breeding intelligently.
The breeders you speak of who co own dogs and 'grow them out' do they do other things with their dogs other than conformation?
Also ... when they say breed true.. this annoys me. Most pups will fall into breed standard. Which is breeding true.
The one reason I am against breeding for conformation is that you are trying to create clones of the 'ideal' dog. At some point and time it will become a crisis in popular show dogs (genetics wise) This is not a maybe.. if things keep going they way they are it will. Populations who are moving towards homozygosity are less able to adapt and have health issues.
The one reason I am against breeding for conformation is that you are trying to create clones of the 'ideal' dog. At some point and time it will become a crisis in popular show dogs (genetics wise) This is not a maybe.. if things keep going they way they are it will. Populations who are moving towards homozygosity are less able to adapt and have health issues.
The Thoroughbred horse in England in the 1970's was a huge indicator of this, before transport links were good enough to bring in blood from other countries.. Inbreeding racehorses is still common practice, and what do you get at the end of the day.. 90% of them ending up at the abattoir. Quite sickening really.
It's the same with pretty much any animal that you are breeding to do a specific task.. Less so in dogs though.
It's the same with pretty much any animal that you are breeding to do a specific task.. Less so in dogs though.
Are you talking about true Inbreeding? Father/daughter, Brother/Sister, or Mother/Son? Or Line breeding? Big difference............
What U.K sire are you talking about from the 70's?
The Arab industry was/is well known for their Inbreedings, but I am not aware of Inbreeding here in N.A for Tb's to be common (I can't think of one that I am aware of and I have looked at a lot of Tb pedigrees over the years). Tb breeders are known to Linebreed however..........But I will do some research concerning Inbreeding of Tb's.
What U.K sire are you talking about from the 70's?
The Arab industry was/is well known for their Inbreedings, but I am not aware of Inbreeding here in N.A for Tb's to be common (I can't think of one that I am aware of and I have looked at a lot of Tb pedigrees over the years). Tb breeders are known to Linebreed however..........But I will do some research concerning Inbreeding of Tb's.
Actually line breeding or inbreeding makes no difference to the population.
If you line breed a few times (less the amount of relativity) the genetic result is the same as inbreeding once.
The issue is inbreeding depression (genetically speaking) and that means an inbred population, not necessarily mother/son sister/brother etc matings. For example the cheetah population is so inbred that 2 cheetahs that don't share any recent ancestors are so genetically similar they can accept skin grafts from eachother.
the TB world is a good example of bottlenecking and inbreeding when it comes to effective population (which is not the same as actual population)
mmm maybe this will help..
Say you have 167 unrelated mares and 100 of them are successfully bred to to 3 unrelated stallions, even though the population size is 170 you have, genetically speaking an effective population size of only about 12 individuals.
So if you line breed frequently its not a big difference, genetically speaking than if you do inbreed but only a little less frequently.
(I can't wait to take a whole course on this.. this is soooo my 'thing')
If you line breed a few times (less the amount of relativity) the genetic result is the same as inbreeding once.
The issue is inbreeding depression (genetically speaking) and that means an inbred population, not necessarily mother/son sister/brother etc matings. For example the cheetah population is so inbred that 2 cheetahs that don't share any recent ancestors are so genetically similar they can accept skin grafts from eachother.
the TB world is a good example of bottlenecking and inbreeding when it comes to effective population (which is not the same as actual population)
mmm maybe this will help..
Say you have 167 unrelated mares and 100 of them are successfully bred to to 3 unrelated stallions, even though the population size is 170 you have, genetically speaking an effective population size of only about 12 individuals.
So if you line breed frequently its not a big difference, genetically speaking than if you do inbreed but only a little less frequently.
(I can't wait to take a whole course on this
.. this is soooo my 'thing')
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