Upcoming puppymill legislation - Please help!

Gempress

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#21
Yeah, I'm pretty sure when they say sell, they mean sell. Though that might include "adopt." I'm also still trying to figure out if your average breeder would magically become a retail pet store. It needs some work.
I agree 100%. "Adopt" is a term coined by rescues and dog lovers. I don't believe it has any legal meaning. A dog is property under the law. You can no more legally "adopt" a dog than you can "adopt" a television. If you're taking money for a dog, you're selling it. If you're paying money for a dog, you're buying it.

I'm just incredibly cautious about bills like this. I'm all for more control of puppy mills. But sadly, lawmakers don't always know the difference between a puppy mill and a good breeder, and may not write legislation that takes the difference into account. And should that happen, there are always organizations like PETA and other animal rights' groups who will take full advantage of the letter of the law--even though it may not be the spirit of the law---and use it to go after reputable dog breeders.
 
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Charliesmommy

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#22
Sigh.

Once again, READ THE LAW.

"any retail pet store or other person who derives less than a substantial portion of his income from the breeding and raising of dogs or cats on his own premises and sells any such dog or cat to a dealer or research facility shall not be required to obtain a license as a dealer or exhibitor under this Act."


Rescues and reputable breeders do not derive a substantial portion of their income from the adoption of animals.
 

corgipower

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#24
Corgipower, that is incorrect. You need to read the animal welfare act, and then read the proposed bill to understand the changes that would be made.
True, I apologize, I am in a constant state of exhaustion and when I read it, my eyes skipped a line. But...

The words "breed or raise" are an obvious and deliberate attempt to
snare many kennel and dog owners in federal regulations, including
many kennels that do not breed at all. The language is very
ambiguous and could be interpreted to include virtually anyone who
has a lot of dogs.

The term "raise" is not defined in the legislation, but is generally
interpreted to mean a person who keeps, cares for, houses or owns a
dog or dogs.

Most professional trainers and handlers of field trial, show,
obedience or performance dogs would have more than 50 dogs in their
kennels over the course of a year. In fact, many trainers and
handlers who employ helpers would have more than 50 dogs at any
given time, and most do not breed at all.

A boarding kennel, dog daycare service, hound hunt club, hunting
plantation or circus could be included under a definition that
they "raise" more than 50 dogs per year. Even many private field
trialers and show dog people would have more than 50 dogs a year in
their kennels, as they often keep most of the puppies they produce
to evaluate. For field trial dogs, for example, it often takes two
or three years of working with a young dog to determine if it is
worthy to use for competition or breeding.

A favorite tactic of HSUS is to deliberately use ambiguity in model
legislation in order to entrap as many kennels and dogs in the law
as possible, going far beyond the stated purpose. If HSUS and its
elected cronies had wanted to be honest, the legislation simply
would say that it excludes anyone who sells fewer than 50 puppies a
year.
but ^^this^^ is still a valid consideration.

I am unclear as to why ANYONE, regardless if they are a sporting dog enthusiast, a breeder, a doggy daycare, whatever, would be opposed to dogs being let out of cages for 60 minutes per day, or would be opposed to inspsection. If you are treating the dogs humanely, what exactly is the problem with an inspection?
Because sometimes the enclosure they are in is large enough to provide exercise without removing them and removing them isn't always safe. If you are housing dogs that are owned by someone else, you don't take unnecessary risks by exposing them to common areas where diseases can spread faster, you don't take additional chances of them getting loose.

I am not opposed to the core of the bill, which is targetting puppy mills. But maybe make them aware of the amibigious wording, and how it could be used to take the spirit of the bill out of context and how it would have a very negative effect on working dog kennels, like Sch kennels that train dogs for PP and law enforcement, etc.
Yea, if it's possible to define it that specifically. I don't know if a "puppy mill" can be defined in a way that won't snare someone else. Most "puppy mills" however are in violation of basic cruelty laws. I think it would be better to enforce the laws that are already on the books.

Rescues and reputable breeders do not derive a substantial portion of their income from the adoption of animals.
Some do. How much income they make is not a reflection on the quality. I know people who sell dogs for $5,000 and more. Sell 10 and there's $50,000. If expenses $10,000 you've made $40,000 from the sale of the dogs. That can very easily be a "substantial portion of their income".
 

Sweet72947

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#25
Yea, if it's possible to define it that specifically. I don't know if a "puppy mill" can be defined in a way that won't snare someone else. Most "puppy mills" however are in violation of basic cruelty laws. I think it would be better to enforce the laws that are already on the books.
I was thinking the same thing. Large puppy mills are exempted from these laws though. It would be great to change the law so that animal cruelty laws apply to EVERYONE, regardless of definition.

Plus, the USDA has some corruption issues. They don't care about dogs. Inspectors let things slide all the time. I came across actual reports of inspections, and it was horrifying. I have been trying to find them again by doing some deep googling, but I haven't had any luck.
 

corgipower

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#26
I was thinking the same thing. Large puppy mills are exempted from these laws though. It would be great to change the law so that animal cruelty laws apply to EVERYONE, regardless of definition.
How so? It shouldn't be too difficult to draft legislation for that.

Plus, the USDA has some corruption issues. They don't care about dogs. Inspectors let things slide all the time.
True with any bureaucracy. *sigh*
 
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#27
Well, and what about trainers of bird dogs or other dogs that are sold trained? I can certainly see a reputable kennel who does that type of thing makign MOST of their income from that. (Frankly, I think it'd be the only way to train more than a dog or two at a time, as you'd need to be doing dog stuff so much of the time that it had darn well better be a fulltime income, or you had better be independently wealthy.) It seems like a lot of the larger GSD kennels probably turnoer 50 dogs a year when you count puppies they sell + dogs in training.
 

Charliesmommy

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#28
Everyone needs to understand how the legislative process works. It is always possible to amend a bill, particulary if it is still in committee and/or at the hearing stage. So if there is a provision, or language, that you think should be clarified and/or amended, let your representative know. You may wish to let him/her know, for example, thay you support the intent and purpose of the bill, while suggesting changes to meet your concerns. It's not a yes or no issue until final passage of the conference report.
 
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#29
By supporting the bill in it's current form, that doesn't necessarily mean that the amendments will come. That's like when Rep Wesselhoft here wanted laws requiring people to have 8 foot fences (incluing areas where you are limited to 6 foot fences) if you owned certain breeds. Another representative pointed out that discrepancy, and Wesselhoft shrugged it off with a "just get the bill passed, we'll fix it after we make it law" kind of comment. Why should people support any bill that is not 100% correct and just pray that it gets tweaked later? I wouldn't.
 

Romy

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#30
Well, and what about trainers of bird dogs or other dogs that are sold trained? I can certainly see a reputable kennel who does that type of thing makign MOST of their income from that. (Frankly, I think it'd be the only way to train more than a dog or two at a time, as you'd need to be doing dog stuff so much of the time that it had darn well better be a fulltime income, or you had better be independently wealthy.) It seems like a lot of the larger GSD kennels probably turnoer 50 dogs a year when you count puppies they sell + dogs in training.
^^ That is what I was concerned about. While we are not in CA there are several Sch kennels around here that import dogs, train, and then sell to law enforcement.

Also, the bill says "gross income", so even if you are losing money after all the expenses, it still counts as income.

I agree Charliesmommy's last post on this. We need to let them know that the vague wording leaves potential for the bill to be abused if passed, and that there are groups poised to abuse it. Then suggest alternate language which is more specific and ensures the spirit of the law is in the letter of the law.
 

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