Trying to decide on a breed (GSD/Dobie)
- Thread starter Gguevara
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I dont know you so dont take this personal.
If you are serious about getting a working line GSD please find a mentor in the breed. They can be verry hard dogs to work with and you NEED to be one step ahead of them. Alot of people are not able to do this.
Now I dont know you or your experiance, so in no way was it ment to be personal
If you are serious about getting a working line GSD please find a mentor in the breed. They can be verry hard dogs to work with and you NEED to be one step ahead of them. Alot of people are not able to do this.
Now I dont know you or your experiance, so in no way was it ment to be personal
Sure. Unlike the American showlines, the German showlines need a degree of workability (like a Sch I), to get the top two titles I believe? See the dog rated "V" (I believe that is "excellent") on the website, she has a herding title. The others don't appear to have working titles and so are rated "SG" which I believe is "very good." There are showline dogs that get their Schutzhund III.
Here is one that I like:
YouTube - Schutzhund Courage Test NASS 2007 German Shepherd
But they are called showlines for a reason... they are bred for show, keeping in mind that a GSD should act like a GSD. Working lines are bred for working ability, keeping in mind that a GSD should look like a GSD.
Getting a dog from either line is not a guarantee. Getting one from working lines is stacking the odds in your favor. I don't know who the father will be but none of this breeder's bitches has a Sch title. The sire might. Of her achievers, one is a police dog and one has a Sch I. Is this because not many people try and title her dogs? Because they can't do it? I don't know her dogs but it's something to ponder. There are lots of BH's but that is a stability thing. Second of all, does she have the experience to select the right pup for you? Someone intimate with Sch will have an idea of how their pups will turn out in regards to working ability... I don't know her and don't want to knock her (she might be a Sch expert, but it's just not her thing), but again, something to ponder. So that is my take on the doing Sch with one of those dogs.
Now on the agility side of things. First of all, a GSD is not a grade A dog for agility. But if you're serious about it and insist on a GSD, I would suggest a smaller, lithe female. Look at the structure of breeds that do well in agility. They don't have backs like that, they tend to be small, square dogs. Look at the structure of those Malinois. Look at border collies.
Hell, look at Rin Tin Tin:
No curvey slopey backs there.
As an exercise, search for pictures and videos of show line dogs doing athletic feats. Then do the same for working line dogs.
That is my take on it. If this is the showline style of dog makes you happy, and you simply want to take it as far as it can go in agility or Sch, go for it.
Here is one that I like:
YouTube - Schutzhund Courage Test NASS 2007 German Shepherd
But they are called showlines for a reason... they are bred for show, keeping in mind that a GSD should act like a GSD. Working lines are bred for working ability, keeping in mind that a GSD should look like a GSD.
Getting a dog from either line is not a guarantee. Getting one from working lines is stacking the odds in your favor. I don't know who the father will be but none of this breeder's bitches has a Sch title. The sire might. Of her achievers, one is a police dog and one has a Sch I. Is this because not many people try and title her dogs? Because they can't do it? I don't know her dogs but it's something to ponder. There are lots of BH's but that is a stability thing. Second of all, does she have the experience to select the right pup for you? Someone intimate with Sch will have an idea of how their pups will turn out in regards to working ability... I don't know her and don't want to knock her (she might be a Sch expert, but it's just not her thing), but again, something to ponder. So that is my take on the doing Sch with one of those dogs.
Now on the agility side of things. First of all, a GSD is not a grade A dog for agility. But if you're serious about it and insist on a GSD, I would suggest a smaller, lithe female. Look at the structure of breeds that do well in agility. They don't have backs like that, they tend to be small, square dogs. Look at the structure of those Malinois. Look at border collies.
Hell, look at Rin Tin Tin:
No curvey slopey backs there.
As an exercise, search for pictures and videos of show line dogs doing athletic feats. Then do the same for working line dogs.
That is my take on it. If this is the showline style of dog makes you happy, and you simply want to take it as far as it can go in agility or Sch, go for it.
Yeah, about that.
See I don't know you and I don't know your personality, your experience or knowledge of handling dogs or animals in general.
I got my working line dog, as my first dog, when I was 16, with the intention of doing Schutzhund. I didn't follow through and I feel really guilty about that, what a waste. My ride decided that the club was too far away *after* I got the dog lol. When I get my license I will take him. He is only 2 so there is still lots of time. When he was a pup I bought a bunch of Leerburg DVD's and I did my best to imprint useful behaviors in him, but there is only so much you can do by yourself. He was one of the better males in the litter, the other is a dual purpose K9 in Texas. He is a driven dog but he is well behaved and safe to be around.
Only two times has he frightened me a little... once was in the back yard and someone who couldn't speak English was lost and wondering around the yard? At any rate he charged them. I hollered at him for all I was worth and he very reluctantly returned, but return he did. My had a similar situation with him, with people hiding behind one of our trucks smoking.
The other was his first spring (he was born in July), and we'd gone to the park and since it was warm it was *crawling* with small, running, squealing children. Now I tried very hard to socialize him as a pup as much as I could but around here most people do not like big dogs, and they certainly don't want their little kids around them, even as puppies. Anyways. He fixated on those kids and began screaming and straining at the end of the leash. Now I sorted that out ASAP and he is relaxed and fine around small children now. But that is the type of behavior that you might encounter with a driven dog.
I said it before (I think lol) and I'll say it again, I recommend you go to some clubs and breeders and meet these dogs and see it's really like to work with them, both the show lines and the working lines, because there are some things you just can't get via the internet.
Good luck!
See I don't know you and I don't know your personality, your experience or knowledge of handling dogs or animals in general.
I got my working line dog, as my first dog, when I was 16, with the intention of doing Schutzhund. I didn't follow through and I feel really guilty about that, what a waste. My ride decided that the club was too far away *after* I got the dog lol. When I get my license I will take him. He is only 2 so there is still lots of time. When he was a pup I bought a bunch of Leerburg DVD's and I did my best to imprint useful behaviors in him, but there is only so much you can do by yourself. He was one of the better males in the litter, the other is a dual purpose K9 in Texas. He is a driven dog but he is well behaved and safe to be around.
Only two times has he frightened me a little... once was in the back yard and someone who couldn't speak English was lost and wondering around the yard? At any rate he charged them. I hollered at him for all I was worth and he very reluctantly returned, but return he did. My had a similar situation with him, with people hiding behind one of our trucks smoking.
The other was his first spring (he was born in July), and we'd gone to the park and since it was warm it was *crawling* with small, running, squealing children. Now I tried very hard to socialize him as a pup as much as I could but around here most people do not like big dogs, and they certainly don't want their little kids around them, even as puppies. Anyways. He fixated on those kids and began screaming and straining at the end of the leash. Now I sorted that out ASAP and he is relaxed and fine around small children now. But that is the type of behavior that you might encounter with a driven dog.
I said it before (I think lol) and I'll say it again, I recommend you go to some clubs and breeders and meet these dogs and see it's really like to work with them, both the show lines and the working lines, because there are some things you just can't get via the internet.
Good luck!
We play a lot of AAC agility in Ontario. The good dobes and GSDs we see are primarily imports... Not always from Europe, but even from the states.
Killian died last year he was a GSD, rocking agility dog with a schutzhund 3 title. Pretty sure he had his lifetime achievement award in the AAC which is I think 225 master Qs to achieve.. Also had an SG rating in the 12-18 month class. Fairly good all over dog with mainly DDR, Czechslovakian and a little west German in his pedigree. Came out of a breeder from Seattle Washington and was a rocking boy who could do anything they wanted to do. Very versatile.
There are dogs around who do it all, but many of the people with them are on their 2nd-4th dog, often all the same breed and are wanting more and more drive from them. I'd love a dobe, but I couldn't handle some of what's being imported on a regular basis.
Look at who scores well in the local schutzhund circuit.. and then see if any of those dogs are also doing agility. I don't play in Ottawa so I'm not sure who all is out that way.
Killian died last year he was a GSD, rocking agility dog with a schutzhund 3 title. Pretty sure he had his lifetime achievement award in the AAC which is I think 225 master Qs to achieve.. Also had an SG rating in the 12-18 month class. Fairly good all over dog with mainly DDR, Czechslovakian and a little west German in his pedigree. Came out of a breeder from Seattle Washington and was a rocking boy who could do anything they wanted to do. Very versatile.
There are dogs around who do it all, but many of the people with them are on their 2nd-4th dog, often all the same breed and are wanting more and more drive from them. I'd love a dobe, but I couldn't handle some of what's being imported on a regular basis.
Look at who scores well in the local schutzhund circuit.. and then see if any of those dogs are also doing agility. I don't play in Ottawa so I'm not sure who all is out that way.
If you go for a show line dog, get a Euro line. They can have decent drive and some working ability in them. A GSD is rarely going to be a top of the line agility dog, but that doesn't mean you can do it for fun. Same with sports like Schutzhund- a show line dog will not be the best but you and the dog can have fun doing it.
Just a word of caution as you've mentioned coyotes and Babymomma mentioned Kaycee chasing one off: there is almost never ONE coyote and while a GSD may be able to match off with one (and don't count on it, the coyote is a killer, your GSD is NOT and may not realize he's fighting for his life until it's too late), just out of sight there will be more of the pack waiting. That's the end of your dog. If there are coyotes where you are, be very, very aware of the danger after dusk.
That is VERY true renee..Im very lucky that the coyote didnt turn on her and that kacee turned around quickly when it ran away! I dont think your getting a dog for the sole purpose of coyote chasing right? Cause if you are there are breeds that are bred to fight off coyotes and stuff to protect flocks and stuff.. Or a donkey, donkeys are cool and if i get a horse in the future a donkey will be coming home with me as well.
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The only dogs I would be comfortable (as comfortable as you can get with your dogs life on the line) with fighting coyote's and other wild predators are those that are bred as flock guardians. Dogs with the size and strength (both mentally and physically) to ward of predators.
I dont think you necessarily have to get a showline because you are a first time GSD owner. I would find a local Schutzhund club (you can get a great dog from the club members breedings) and they can help you raise your puppy to become the best dog it can be. My personal favorite dog was a west german working/show mix (my first GSD). Sufficient drive, but very mellow and unphased by practically anything. My west german/czech dog is mellow in the house but out in public his eyes are everywhere and gets amped by just about anything. He's fun but it gets obnoxious when he gets over excited.
I dont think you necessarily have to get a showline because you are a first time GSD owner. I would find a local Schutzhund club (you can get a great dog from the club members breedings) and they can help you raise your puppy to become the best dog it can be. My personal favorite dog was a west german working/show mix (my first GSD). Sufficient drive, but very mellow and unphased by practically anything. My west german/czech dog is mellow in the house but out in public his eyes are everywhere and gets amped by just about anything. He's fun but it gets obnoxious when he gets over excited.
find out what kind of dog you want and get it. Who cares about the lines. Get out and look at them, you don't know what you want cause you don't know what they can do. you haven't watched any.
Trust me. I didn't start with showline, my first dog was a working line bitch, trained to sch II and started from nothing. You learn as you go. It's not like they're some crazed beast that only a select few can handle. If you want an active dog and a dog that you must engage with every single day and you pay attention, you'll be fine. You can't expect to have them live in a crate for 8 hours then when you come home be a well behaved dog.
I've known so many people that get a "showline" because it's their first dog and they don't want more than they can handle. In a few months time, they're so disappointed and can't wait to get their hands on a new dog.
Now some people love their showline dogs, some actually work decent enough if you're lucky. Some are more than happy with what they can do with them, but if you want athletic and drivey and something to do schutzhund with, go where they're proven.
Just because they come from Germany doesn't mean the showlines are anything. Check out the latest videos from the BSZS this year. The cream of the crop so to speak in the showline world. Most of what I saw on there were crap. I didn't see a single dog that even came close to the worst working dogs in our club.
Anyway, you're researching on the net, that's a start, now get out and look at the dogs and what they actually do. Some breeders that have clubs might be more than thrilled to let you handle some of their dogs after you've hung around a while and shown interest.
So many, and I do mean a **** load of people say they want to do schutzhund or something like it and go buy a puppy without ever watching lots of dogs. They all regret it in the end. Do yourself a favor, go and watch, and more than one or two times and more than one or two clubs.
If these sports are something your serious about, then putting in the time now to find the right dog or puppy is worth it. Don't be in a hurry, cause they're around for a long time, you owe it to yourself and your dog to get the right kind you're looking for. You can't turn a yugo into a porsche just because you want to go fast.
Trust me. I didn't start with showline, my first dog was a working line bitch, trained to sch II and started from nothing. You learn as you go. It's not like they're some crazed beast that only a select few can handle. If you want an active dog and a dog that you must engage with every single day and you pay attention, you'll be fine. You can't expect to have them live in a crate for 8 hours then when you come home be a well behaved dog.
I've known so many people that get a "showline" because it's their first dog and they don't want more than they can handle. In a few months time, they're so disappointed and can't wait to get their hands on a new dog.
Now some people love their showline dogs, some actually work decent enough if you're lucky. Some are more than happy with what they can do with them, but if you want athletic and drivey and something to do schutzhund with, go where they're proven.
Just because they come from Germany doesn't mean the showlines are anything. Check out the latest videos from the BSZS this year. The cream of the crop so to speak in the showline world. Most of what I saw on there were crap. I didn't see a single dog that even came close to the worst working dogs in our club.
Anyway, you're researching on the net, that's a start, now get out and look at the dogs and what they actually do. Some breeders that have clubs might be more than thrilled to let you handle some of their dogs after you've hung around a while and shown interest.
So many, and I do mean a **** load of people say they want to do schutzhund or something like it and go buy a puppy without ever watching lots of dogs. They all regret it in the end. Do yourself a favor, go and watch, and more than one or two times and more than one or two clubs.
If these sports are something your serious about, then putting in the time now to find the right dog or puppy is worth it. Don't be in a hurry, cause they're around for a long time, you owe it to yourself and your dog to get the right kind you're looking for. You can't turn a yugo into a porsche just because you want to go fast.
I also agree with Release the Hounds,,,you may say you can't live with a working line, but there are so many variables with gsd's, you may run into one you like 
))
My previous working lines were not wacko's who couldn't settle,,they were ready to go when you wanted them to, but ok hanging out all day.
Who knows you may end up seeing an American or Canadian line dog you like and go with that!
I agree that GSD's do not have a long shelf life when it comes to agility,,I competed with one thru Excellent but had to retire her at around 7,
First and foremost you want a dog you can LIVE with because that is what the dog will be doing most of the time LIVING with you, definately check out what's out there, dog shows, shutz clubs, breeders, most will be happy to show off their dogs and figure out what type or dog, would fit within your lifestyle..
))My previous working lines were not wacko's who couldn't settle,,they were ready to go when you wanted them to, but ok hanging out all day.
Who knows you may end up seeing an American or Canadian line dog you like and go with that!
I agree that GSD's do not have a long shelf life when it comes to agility,,I competed with one thru Excellent but had to retire her at around 7,
First and foremost you want a dog you can LIVE with because that is what the dog will be doing most of the time LIVING with you, definately check out what's out there, dog shows, shutz clubs, breeders, most will be happy to show off their dogs and figure out what type or dog, would fit within your lifestyle..