Aggressive dobe

Hi, this is my first post here, I'm Mark and I own 2 year old dobe.
The huge problems starded a week ago. I was out in the pub and when I've returned home my dobe was cheerful and I've started petting and hugging him (as we usually do when I return home) but when I when I've lowered my head expecting him to lick my ear (as he usually does) he growled at me. It was very aggressive growl, like when he growles at other male dogs or at mailman. I was very surprised, immediately after that he started to act scared like he knew he did something very wrong and was expecting punishment.
I tried to pet him again after some time and lowered my head again, he repeated the growl and tried to bit my arm. Then it crossed my mind that someone could have been with a male dog in the pub, so maybe some of it's smell left on my clothes and hands. I haven't taken him to the vet, he was acting strange for a few days, like he was afraid of me.
Last few days he was acting normal, he was asking me to pet him, licking my ear, I almost forgot previous incident.
But, today he repeated it. I was petting him and he suddenly attacked and tried to bit my arm. He immediately stood back when I said NO and he is acting scared again. He is obeying all commands, so I don't think it's domination problem.
He is very attached to my family and me (the most), he lives and sleeps with us in the house. He is acting completely normal to others.
Please help!

Well, I might not be the best person to ask for advice But my dog has only showed small amounts of aggression to my veterinarian and he is a 14 month old intact male ACD who is getting neutered in another few months. Is your Dobe fixed? If not around the age of 2 years they can start "feeling there oats" so to speak and the testosterone levels kick up a notch. If he is growling and trying to bite the hand that feeds him it is not a good sign for you and you really need to take him to a very well educated dog trainer who can give you some advice on how to handle him. Good luck !

Definitely get your Doberman into the Vet and have a complete check up with possible blood work. Seizures are very common in Dobe's.

If every thing medical seems fine I would take a good look at the body postures that make your dog uncomfortable. Some dogs are not comfortable with someone coming down over top of them. Have you used any forced based training methods? if so, it's time to switch to positive only training to allow your dog to gain confidence in you again.

I agree with Poppy ... this is not a normal reaction . There could be a medical issue . Please let us know what the vet says . I'm sure your approach to the pup has been then same for 2 years. After " the pub " you may come on too heavy ! Only you know this .... I know if my husband had landed on me after pubbing it , I would have growled and bitten too ! Sorry for making light of this .... it is a problem for you . Something happened in the first issue that the dog remembers but you don't .Go slowly and re insure .... and let us know !

Thanks for answering. I don't think that pub was the problem, I haven't drank anything there and I haven't done with dog anything that I don't do every time when I come home. I have never heard that any dog was acting like that. When someone tries to beat or overpunish the dog it's logical that it could react with aggression beacause of fear but it isn't normal that he growles when being pet.

Poppy is right, go to the vet, Dobies like to hide their illness.

send dobieluv a pm, she is the well clued up re dobies.

I agree with getting him checked by a vet first. Always eliminate the possibility of something medical first.

Poppy is right. It is normal for a dog to interpret your face in their face as an aggressive posture. Some dogs learn that we humans don't mean anything by it, but some retain those instincts more so. You should not put your face in front of your dog's face.

You really need to get a hold of a reputable, certified behaviorist asap, who uses gentle methods, who can come to your home and observe what's going on. This is too serious to be able to get the proper help over the Internet.

There's something wrong with the relationship, I fear. How much punishment have you used with this dog? How stern? Also, how do you train? How do you interact with your dog? How much reacting are you doing to his requests, what he wants etc? (I am not implying anything here....just trying to get a feel for what could be behind this)

Is your dog shy or timid in any way?

Dogs do not know that they've done "wrong" by our standards of wrong. Remember, they are not moral creatures and do not have the same values as we do. They don't think like we do. There's a condition and there's a response...a behavior, a consequence. Dogs learn very well what consequence goes with a certain behavior. If your dog has been frightened by you at any time, he can lose trust in you and it doesn't take much for him to become defensive. (and dangerous) Dobes are very, very sensative to their environment and to their owners.

I totally don't think it has anything to do with being at the pub.

So, I highly recommend you get some help or this dog may well end up having to be put down. It can escalate very fast.

In the meantime, I would suggest NOT greeting him when you come home. Don't encroach on his space at all. Just do your thing and stop paying any attention to him at all for now, other than when you have to give him commands. You control everything he wants; from treats, to food, to opening the door for him to go out, to toys, to attention, to affection. Leaders control resources. Think about which resources are important to him and stop giving them for free. Be very aloof and ask him to perform some obedience skill before he gets ANYTHING he likes or needs. Do not be loud, scary, scolding. Never punish a growl. Big mistake. He will stop warning and go straight for the bite, which he is already doing a little, right?

Does he have furniture priveleges? Does he get off promptly when asked? That's something I would stop for now...no furniture priveleges without performing first....sit, down, stay, come....OK.

How much obedience practice do you do? Beef it up. For behavior you like, reinforce it with something he values highly; a hot dog piece, a piece of cheese. And this is not only with your obedience training. This goes for anything in the house.....he comes near you and looks relaxed and calm, friendly, pop him a treat. Stop lavishing patting and hugging on him. He doesn't seem to want that now. Keep a little aloof. But reward him for behaviors you like. For behavior you don't like, whining for something, barking, begging, ignore him. Don't punish. Completely ignore behaviors where he is demanding attention or a reaction from you. If he's engaging in a behavior which is self rewarding, getting into something, don't yell or grab him....just distract him with something else, give him a command and reward for his doing that.

If he is looking shify eyed, tense, growling, do not make eye contact with him. Turn sideways, lower your head and ignore him completely. Do not give him any reaction what so ever.

Get him exercise and take him for walks. Reward him for walking nicely. Do not talk a lot, just take charge of the walk. Pop him a treat when he is relaxed and friendly. If he pulls, stop and be quiet. When he gives you slack again in the leash, resume walking.

In other words, teach him that he is going to have to do his part, his job in order to live. If he wants to eat and have social interaction with you, certain behavior will need to be present. Don't give him his food in a bowl. Give it by handfuls throughout the day. One handful (from your hand) for one behavior, skill or trick. Don't waste resources by giving for free.

But again...do not be stern, startling, intimidating, frightening to him in any way. Be confident, firm and watch for behavior you like which can be rewarded.

Your vet or a vet he knows may be able to hook you up with a behaviorist. Be sure to get other references. Be sure the behaviorist does not do anything which is aversive, harsh, intimidating. This can ruin your dog more.

Keep us posted. I wish you the best.

Thanks alot Doberluv! I've went to the vet today he couldn't do anything as dog didn't react on petting there. He recommended head x-ray check so I have to go to another vet because this one doesn't have the equipment.
When he went to obedience school we used choke collar as punishment and playing as award (as he isn't lickerish). Now the word NO is enough so I don't use choke anymore.
Maybe the problem is that he learned he has some power on other family members because they sometimes react on his requests. But why it occured so suddenly, we haven't changed our behaviour at all?
He is not shy at all, he has excellent temper.
Today he growled again, this time at my mother. After we analysed what were we doing before growling, we concluded he reacted when we were touching the aerea behind his ears (cropped). Is it possible that something hurts him there? But I suppose he would whine, not growl in that case.
I'm really confused, I'll know more after x-ray check. Thanks for help, I'll keep you informed.

Yes, sometimes there can be a brain tumor (don't mean to scare you) but that can affect them that way. Thyroid imbalance also can cause aggression. So be sure he checks that, as hypotyroidism is one of the things Dobermans get sometimes. If his ears are healed, no infection or anything, I doubt it's his ears. But a lot of dogs don't like their heads touched (the top, coming down on them) especially if something bad has been associated with it.

It can also be that he is just now getting this way because he is getting older and more mature. And it can very well be that people in the family or anyone who interacts with him have been catering to him too much, answering his every demand. This reinforcement of this behavior or any unwanted behavior will make a dog repeat that behavior. Sometimes you reinforce behavior and you don't even know you're doing it. And it can lead to this aggression.

What does this mean? That he doesn't like food treats? Most dogs love food treats. Sometimes you need to use an extra special one. A reinforcer is something which makes a behavior be repeated. So if the dog does something you really like, you must reinforce it with something he loves. Play, attention, praise is great but a tasty treat for a job well done really helps because he doesn't get it for everything. It's a special treat.

But remember too, that rewards vary. In other words, if he wants to go outside very badly, and he sits nicely before you open the door, opening the door is a reward because that's what he wants at that time. If you're playing fetch and he brings you the stick or ball, he probably doesn't care about a pat or even a treat, but throwing the ball again would be the reward for his bringing it back. So, you immediately throw the ball. Just think about what he wants and needs and exploit it.

Do get some professional help though, no matter what. This is too hard to know for sure what is behind this behavior over the Internet. He needs to be watched in how everything works in the family.

Also he could have an ear infection but since he just went to the vet it is not likely. I am SO you glad that you may have found the problem!!!!!

I am a dobe owner and agree that they do hide illnesses. They never seem to complain that much and sometimes it makes it hard to know when your dog is ill. I remember one time I had my dog at sport and he was sitting down next to me. This older sensible kid came up to pat him and he growled. This was most unusual for him. This was the first day that I had got him back from a kennel after being on holidays. The next day my dog came down with a doggy bug he had picked up at the kennel and had diarrhoea and a temp. He was ok but that was the reason he growled uncharacteristically. He was not feeling too good.

Another thing is that if you dog is male and not neutered, he could be 'feeling his oats' as another poster put. If this is the case, you have to show him that you are in control & that behaviour is not tolerated by you. As soon as he does this, grab him with both hands by the scruff of the neck and voice your disapproval by a growling type noise. Its easier when they are smaller to do this as you can overthrow them and hold their neck down and do it. It shows you are the dominant one.

I was warned when I bought my male dobe off the breeder that sometimes they display a dominant behaviour when they peak at sexual maturity.and that if he did try this to nip it in the bud straight away.

My dog was being the perfect gentleman and I was thinking this was a breeze until one time at training. He was learning to 'drop' and I was working him in a chain. He totally refused to drop and the teacher insisted that I make him do it. Well, the dog just refused and then growled at me in such a way that it took me by surprise as I hadnt seen this in him before. The teacher was saying 'Make him do it" and I was thinking " thats ok for you to stand there and say that but I am about to get into an arguement with a dobermann and I'm not really sure if I want to do that lol"I was a bit apprehensive of making him do it until some wonderful stroke of luck which saved me the stress. The second time I attempted to get him to do it he was about to do the same thing when the chain pinched his neck. He yelped a bit and then dropped to the ground like lightning. I think he thought I had done it. It didn't matter anyway because ever since that day he dropped on command first time every time and 'dropping' became his best command.

Welcome Blade&I,

I'm sorry, but this is not good advice to be giving on the net. You are setting someone up for a potentially dangerous situation where they could get bitten in the face, ruin their dog's trust, or worse.

I hope you are simply a little naive or new to the dog boards, and not just saying this to stir people up.

Either way, I'm sure you'll get some interesting comments on this.

opcorn:

Angelique! You beat me! I was just going to say "Now there is a good way to give your dog the wrong idea!" I admit I tried that show of "dominance" with my pit bull mix and a. he thought I was playing and b. decided to try to bite my face. I learned through time that a nice stern GRRRRRRRRRRR will make him KNOW what I mean. I don't have to "force" him into submission or force him to recognize me as the "dominant" one. If you control every aspect of his life, he will get your place over him A LOT faster!

Pleeeeeeeze don't man-handle your Doberman. Big mistake. You don't know what's in his mind, what's behind his aggression. You never treat aggression with aggression. What if he does have pain? What if he's afraid of something? Would you punish someone who was afraid? You do not have to dominate your dog. You need to train your dog. If your dog is obedient to commands, he is following you. Any behavior you don't like, be sure you're not inadvertantly rewarding him or reinforcing the behavior. And visa versa....any behavior you do like, be sure and let him know how wonderful he is. Ignore behaviors which are reinforced by attention and other types...self rewarding: distract, give an alternative and reward for that.

This is really something which needs a good behaviorist to observe because we can't tell over the Internet what is in his mind.

It is highly unlikely IMO that he is trying to be the leader and take over. It is rare in dogs. They can develop horrible behavior, but that doesn't mean that they're staging a coupe. There are ways to modify behavior without destroying your relationship by using stern, harsh aversives. A leader doesn't resort to physical stuff at all. You need to out-wit him.

Hope you get some help.

:yikes:

No, no and no. That is all I am going to say about that one.

Sorry he wasnt sick and he wasnt in pain, he was trying to dominate me and being a female, I was not about to let my male dog do that. He had just reached his sexual maturity and was trying to put one over on me.You can all get the visions out of your head of some cruel owner throwing their dog down on the ground and trying to force him. It just wasnt like that at all so dont get off your high horses. I am not naive or trying to stir things up. My breeder of Australian champions in the show ring and obedience warned me that he may try this at some stage and I did as she suggested.

It worked beautifully for my dog and I and he is very obedient and loyal. He is much loved at the vets and they cant believe that he never has to be muzzled for anything no matter if its painful or stressful.

You see, I know my dog the best and he knows me .

I could have warned you too the very same thing if you have been using a lot of compulsive, forceful training methods.

If you've been handling your dog with this type of philosophy, the man handling, the harsh scoldings, scruffing, yanking him on a chain, it can very well put a wedge between you and your dog. It damages the relationship. It makes you out to be an insecure, flailing leader when you resort to that sort of thing. It damages the trust and the bond you have with your dog. And that's why, most likely, he did that. He probably was forced into a defensive position. Dobermans tend to be very sensative. It's like they have little feelers sticking out of them at all times, taking in their environment. If you're upset or tense, he will be too. Or training by using too many aversives where the dog is obeying in order to avoid something bad, a collar yank and other stern measures, rather than working to earn a reward. If my dog won't do something, I try to find out why. And try to find what will motivate him to do it.


It's just that some of us have left the old, stern, compulsive, punative, aversive training methods behind...back where they belong, in the dark ages, in favor of more effective methods based on the science of behavior and more recent discoveries about what works, how dogs think and learn.

Many, many modern trainers are using "positive" training methods, motivation and reward based methods. Even with that aside, it is not wise to put a dog on the defensive by attacking him. There are other ways to deal with behavior problems. Sometimes by doing what you advised, the behavior backfires at some point down the road. You only supress what's causing the behavior, not find out what it is and work to eliminate the underlying cause.

It's not that we imagine you abusing your dog by scruffing him. Heaven knows there are worse things. It's just that using harsh aversives is not the best way of trining. (in lots of our opinions.) (ilooo...is that a new abbreviation we can use?) LOL.

I have a 3 yr. old Doberman male and never once has he shown one iota of aggression toward me or anyone else, other than when he was doing his job. What is so amazing about going to the vets and not having to muzzle your dog? I don't either and he's had all kinds of nasty procedures done to him too.

Well, sorry if you feel put down...we don't mean to be on high horses. It's just that most of us are geared up and moving along with modern science, I guess you could say. A lot of people on these boards are bound to jump on what you say, if you talk about using a lot of physical punishment.

Hope there are no hard feelings.

I certainly didn't have an idea of a cruel owner manhandling their dog. I just thought of an inexperienced owner given some bad advice that happened to work out ok in their dog's situation. That is, until it all goes horribly wrong if you continue to use those kinds of methods.

People disagreeing with you or showing opinions that differ from yours does not mean they are on their high horses. You might know your dog well but many of the people on this board are very experienced behaviourists and trainers and therefore can be said to know the nature of ALL dogs - or that is to say, how their brains work and how the general population of dogs and the way they behave works based on years of learning and experience, not on owning one dog who they've gotten to know.

There are exceptions to every rule. Sure, your dog probably is beautiful and well behaved and that situation did it no harm, which is great. But what if it hadn't turned out that way? You need to be open to other schools of thought.

I doubt very much that your dog was trying to dominate you - that is a term that just gets thrown around without real understanding of it, to describe every behaviour a dog displays that we don't know the motivation behind. It pees on the lounge, it's trying to dominate. It barks at you, it's trying to dominate. It doesn't get out of your way, it's trying to dominate. It pulls on its lead, it's trying to dominate.

I used to have two male German Shepherds who were huge and strong and very, very powerful. They never had to be muzzled at the vet either. Because I trained them. Not because I forced them into submission. Because they were well behaved obedient dogs who learned the way I expected them to behave through me trying to learn how they worked things out in their heads. I would hate to think what could have happened to me or anyone else later on in life because I yanked my dogs to the ground and pinned them down in a misguided attempt to show him them I was boss.

Your dog was probably just being a dog. As they do. Dogs don't even try to dominate each other, they just work out a pecking order and that's that. There's very little conscious effort involved, it's a genetic, natural, instinctual behaviour that goes back a thousand years and whilst still inherent in domestic dogs is much less of a driving force, so far removed as they are from wolves. Of course it is relevant, but people consistently make the mistake of trying to assert authority by using physical force - which, if you saw any behaviour of dogs or wolves in the wild is actually not how dogs themselves do it.

I would suggest that you try to have a more open mind, and when you have been around this board longer, or read some books on behaviour or how dogs work (as much as we as humans can ever know, anyway) then you might change your mind. Or you might not. We can all learn more, all the time. If we want to. As I said, luckily your dog has turned out ok.

Aggreesive Male Dob

Hi there: I am responding to your concerns about your Dob male. Yes do take everyones advice as to going to your vets. That is a great start. Although I will impress upon you these areas:

1) Dobermans do not reach their mental maturity level until the age of 2 Especially males.
2) Males tend to attempt to show dominance towards anyone in the house at that age to establish pecking order and this male is attempting that with you. To best secure this attitude is to get him enrolled with a professional trainer that has the abillity to assist you to correct the noticed situation.
3) Check your pedigree and do a resurch on the dogs in the back ground. If in that pedigree a dog has been recognised with an over aggressive temperment then you know exactly where this is coming from.
4) Having a dog altered is great advice although it is up to you, your vet and your trainer to secure that that is the true cause for the issues noticed at this time.

Blade & I, id love to find out how or if this issue was resolved.