Brachy breeds health vs quality?

Well, what is asked for in the standard is absolutely no guarantee of what will win or what will represent the breed.


I am not trying to say that all dogs in all breeds are kept fat, I too show my dogs and keep them incredibly trim and well muscled, but what we do and what top winning show kennels do are different.

This. Seriously, we show our APBTs in UKC at a healthy, fit weight (but not quite ADBA conditioned, don't want to give the judges a stroke, most of them are used to judging AKC Amstaffs), and we've had judges tell us that this looks underweight and unhealthy.

lol my dog IS from a show breeder :rofl1: so I am hardly "hating" on them. Just saying that when it comes to what she is looking for, you may be very hard pressed to find a breeder that is breeding so blatantly out of standard.

Like if someone wants a deer headed chihuahua, you probably aren't going to find a proper show breeder that is breeding away from the standard (which calls for apple head).. just the truth. I am not one of those people that thinks anyone breeding anything except the exact standard is an awful person,that's just not what 'responsible breeder' means to me but hey that's just me.

I have of course seen plenty of totally flat faced dogs who have lots of endurance and are PERFECTLY healthy, but I totally understand wanting a dog with a bit more snout than that.
Not saying that more snout=healthier..simply that yea, you can hear the difference. Which is just a matter of anatomy, of course a dog with a totally flat face is going to snort a little lol it's not that's bad! just true!

I am PRO show breeder 100% if it's what you are looking for. I would go back to Merlin's breeder a thousand times.. but for someone looking for an aussie with barely any coat and a crazy herding drive.. yea, barking up the wrong tree. Doesn't make her a bad breeder of course just makes her the wrong breeder for that person.

Certainly not suggesting a BYB. But chances are, when looking for a dog that is totally out of standard/NOT what is winning at shows, you aren't going to find many show breeders who are breeding litters in that direction.. just seems like common sense to me.
Like going to a sports breeder for a "low key sofa dog".. it doesn't make sense.

Not saying there are ANYTHING wrong with show bred bostons. They are just aren't the type I prefer.
Show bred aussies obviously are :rofl1:

I want a Frenchie like the ones Fran dogwalks. Adorable.

Well it also says in the pug standard they should have the hardness of developed muscle...

Put your hands on most of them though? Some might be hard, but its that hard fat with barely any muscle tone because the dogs don't do anything to build muscle. Most of them can't at the state they're in and their owners don't want to bother either.

Whether it is an indictment of show breeders or not, if I were to look at the two photos Fran posted, I know which one I'd take. Standard or not, able to run or not, I know that dogs are supposed to have a muzzle. I would not choose to get one that didn't, even if that particular dog functioned decently without it, because I can't believe that *every* dog bred in the quest to get that look has remained 100% functional.

Yep. The Amstaff breed standard says about the ears "cropped or uncropped, uncropped preferred" Ask some Amstaff breed people if they intend to show an uncropped dog, and if so, whether they expect to do much winning with it.

Judges and most exhibitors really have no idea what "fat" looks like. They think if it doesn't jiggle, it's in fine, lean condition.

I know plenty of brachycephalic dogs that compete in agility, so I wouldn't say that flat faced dogs are incapable of being athletic. They do sometimes need help cooling. So does Pirate, and he has a snout.

As far as Pekes go, though, I do think you'd have to go to a BYB or a mix, I just don't see any way that a breed that has been deliberately bred for centuries to be not athletic or active is going to be likely to have those traits. Or, get a Tibetan Spaniel.

I agree with "get a Tibetan Spaniel" if you want something that looks similar to a Peke, and appears "more" athletic (though longer muzzle does not magically equal athletic, Tibetan Spaniels still have structural qualities that make them unsuited to most activities). For the sake of education, this is what a Peke looks like under all of the hair...



I guess my question when people start tossing the word "functional" around is going to be, "functional for what exactly?"

According to the definition for "function" -- the action for which a person or thing is specially fitted or used or for which a thing exists -- modern Pekingese are just as "functional" as Pekingese hundreds of years ago and beyond, regardless of their previous structure or how it has changed over time, because they were intended and are still used as a lap companion. Of course, going by the same definition, English Bulldogs are also "functional" because even though they weren't created for the purpose of being strictly a companion breed, that IS what they are specifically fitted and used for now.

If you're really looking for the word "athletic" rather than "functional," a lot of brachy breeds are more than capable of being generally "athletic." It boils down to basically the same question... What is it that you're wanting to do with the dog?

That's sort of my point about the peke, though--I want another Venus, whether or not she was what a peke should be. I liked her 'I do what I want thanks' attitude, her spunk, her joy at the world, her aloofness, her weird quirks, her size, her snuggle-ability, her intelligence... all that stuff, but when I went looking at show bred pekes, while they shared a lot of her personality quirks, they aren't as suited to our lifestyle/location as she was... probably because I don't really want a pekingese, if that makes sense? I want another Venus.

*I* want a dog with some muzzle, maybe 1" to 1.5", with better structure than a show Frenchie. And maybe a tail. a real tail, ffs.

So you...want a dog that you can call a Frenchie, but you don't actually want a Frenchie. And this dog probably can't come from a shelter or rescue, right? Because it's going to become the next breeding project, since wolf hybrids, merle "Pit Bulls," tricolored Bullies and whatever "breed" it was before all of those have lost their novelty.

And the cycle continues...

I have a Boston and a Frenchie. Both adopted so most likely BYB. Rocky the Frenchie was actually a BYB/puppy mill Stud dog.

I am very active outside hiking at least 2x a week. Neither dog has any issue keeping up with me. We hike for miles usually 3-5 miles at a time in Florida. When the temps get over 90 I don't take them unless we go after the sun goes down.

Jack the Boston doesn't swim that well, but Rocky the Frenchie swims very well. He is a little powerhouse.

Jack is way more active, reminds me of the Energizer Bunny!

That's not a Frenchie though...

Sounds more like a staffy.

So you want a different breed?

remind me where iv bred any of those things :rofl1:

and no, i do not want a staffy. how is a frenchie anything like a staffy? 1" is not long, its about as wide as my thumb, which is about the length of some byb bostons iv groomed, and its a decent length, still looks typey, but isnt "i just ran into a wall" flat. and better angulation than the stick straight show dogs-- how does that make it a staffy? or not a frenchie? many show staffys have that straight front and rear too > > and the tail, well, i dont like the spinal issues that come along with those weird smashed up kinked corkscrew tails, and i dont like how it looks when the dog cant even really wag :/ if its not possible to get a frenchie with at least a few inches of tail, then i suppose ill never own one, but everything else im sure is possible to find, its just the byb vs good breeder part thats hard

Whoops, sorry. You only planned on it, until they kept getting "stolen." My bad. Now you just breed tricolored American Bullies out of a bitch you told me you were scared of because of her temperament issues that come down from her sire. Thanks for the correction.

I think your options are going to be rescue, a 'pet' breeder that health tests, and simply thumbing through the millions of breeder web pages until you find a breeder that has dogs that you like. Otherwise, you may want to look at other breeds to suit your needs. If I were to get another ACD, I know I prefer a bit leaner, lighter, taller build compared to a lot of the very 'squat' dogs that are closer to what is being shown now. I would have to look for a breeder producing the 'type' of ACD that I like.

Just buy a rescue mix that looks frenchie-ish.

The combination of no muzzle and obesity certainly is a bad one. Still, that doesn't mean that not having muzzle isn't in itself an issue (just like being obese is in itself an issue). Those extreme brachy traits can cause dental issues, breathing issues, eye issues and other problems. I know several Pugs (BYB FWIW) who can't hold their tongues in their mouths. Their tongue just constantly sticks out and is dry. You can hear every single breath those dogs take too. I know multiple one eyed Shih Tzus and Pekes who had eye injuries due to their eyes too easily popping out their heads. And various Brachy breeds who have constant eye issues. So it's not just a matter of muzzle length. And it is not just show breeders who's dog have these issues. I have seen some really extreme BYB/petstore bought examples too.

As for the comment that all breeds are kept overweight for the ring...I'm involved with showing two breeds and neither is shown fat. If anything, you're likely to see dogs in the ring who could stand to put on a couple lbs. Actually Whim lost to Cherry at our UKC National because she was about 4 - 5lbs overweight (per me) and Cherry was more fit. And when Savvy got a bit chubby as a puppy, his breeder was quick to tell me he was eating too well I know a long, long time Boxer breeder/judge who definitely expects Boxers to be shown well muscled and not fat or soft.

So it is fashionable in some breeds to show fat dogs but that is not the case in all breeds.


I don't think it's unrealistic or wrong to want a dog who is a less extreme version of the modern trends. If I got another Collie, I'd want a dog like these:







There is nothing about them that doesn't make them Collies. I would even argue they have nice breed type but are just not "ultra-typed", they don't have some of the extreme features you see more typically in the modern version of the breed. That is what I like in the breed, regardless of what people consider "correct" right now.

Also I strongly prefer Corgis who have some length of leg and are a bit shorter bodied. That doesn't mean I don't like Corgis, it is a variation in type found within the breed...it's just not what breeder in modern times consider "typey". If we were to get another Corgi though, you can bet I'd be looking for one built like Ziggy or Emily's Keeva.

And GSDs, I also prefer the more moderately built dogs regardless of lines. Luckily in GSDs there seems to be more acceptance to seek out whatever floats your boat. Although I have been told by people that anyone not breeding AKC show quality GSDs was a BYB (people who said the reason they didn't get a GSD was because of the way show GSDs are built).