Correctional Training

silverpawz

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#41
How does a dog owner truly know if his dog is happy & confident?
Is the tail relaxed or wagging?
Are the ears relaxed? (not pined back)
Is the dog eager to train with you?

You know how your dog looks when he's happy right? When he playing with his favorite toy, when he's eager to get that yummy treat, when he's just hanging out and relxing with you? Observe his body language at those times and you'll see what a happy, relaxed dog looks like. If you see that when you're training as well then you're doing something right.

On the flipside, if the dog is cowering at any time, fliching, pinning the ears back, grumbling, snarking, submissive peeing, tail tucking, refusing to move, etc. those are NOT good signs and you should change your approach.
 
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stags14

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#42
Roxy's CD said:
OK, I see a lot "hating" go on right now, and I don't quite understand why.

Some dogs do OK with corrections. Some do not. Different mixes of positive/negative work better/worse with different dogs.

I believe what dr2little is saying is that, purely motivational (negative verbal "guidlines" eh eh, wrong, no etc) works on ANY dog.

Of course these other methods work. But there is no need for physical correction to get your dog to do what you want.

stags14- That situation would never happen. Let's say it did. Hades has jumped on the counter is eating/sniffing human food. He would run to his kennel with his tail between his legs if he SAW me. He would take off like a bullet if he I said very firmly, "HADES! WRONG!".

I used the "balanced training" method with my dog, Roxy. (for basic obedience) IT WORKED! IT REALLY WORKED! FAST! BUUUUUUUUUT, we are now having serious motivational problems that since being pointed out to me are DIRECTLY related to the methods that were used to train her.

Things that were taught with purely motivational methods are FUN for her, she enjoys them I enjoy them. But like flicking a light switch off, when we switch to the things that were taught with leash corrections combined with verbal praise and treats, the DOG SHUTS DOWN. Quite literally, and no longer wants to work.

For only a few days, I have stopped using leash corrections and the only negative thing in our repetroire has been "Verbal guidlines", when she's headed the wrong way "Ah ah" or "wrong". And already I have seen a difference.

We will begin purely motivational training tonight, and I will post how it goes. I am confident that I WILL SEE CHANGE in her. Not a huge difference, but I will se a happier dog in school tonight.

If not, I'll eat all those words and start looking for another method.
So when you are walking her, and she pulls on the leash, are you going to change directions and go the way that she wants to go? If you didn't, the dog would certainly feel a physical pull. And that physical pull would go against everything you are saying. With your method, you would never want your dog to feel any type of force on the leash. That means you would have to follow her - and not have her follow you.

Who pointed out that your methods DIRECTLY resulted in your dog no longer being motivated? I am sure there are many people that train police dogs and assistance dpgs that would disagree with you.

And by the way - because you have already made up your mind about what the best methods are - you will see what you want to see. Just like when a mother says to the newspaper "There is no way my precious little Ted Bundy could be a murderer - he did not do those things"....
 

Doberluv

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#43
First of all, positive reward, using primary and secondary enforcers (operant and classical conditioning based methods) is what I subscribe to. I put the vast emphasis on the motivation and reward aspect of it because science has proven that it is more effective to an animal's learning than is admistering aversives. Not only has this been demonstrated scientifically, but I am more comfortable with it and it works very well. I have seen who uses this type of training methods, their results and their credentials, where they work, what they work with and it is indeed impressive. These PhDs in applied animal behavior use mainly reward based methods and in many cases completely void of aversives. This is not to say that I don't tell my dogs not to do something. I do. I don't always take the time to do things the way I know they could be handled. I too, am still learning and developing new habits. I would not hesitate to pull my dog off the counter if he were jumping up and telling him, "eh-eh." And when he sat and stayed off, let him know that's what I want and reward him. I don't use collar corrections or harsh vocalizations when training obedience or agility. It's all motivation and reward...all of it. And my Doberman is very obedient, extraordinarily enthusiastic about whatever I ask him to do. His recall is superb and reliable and very prompt. He use to run into me, he was coming so fast...when he was a pup. LOL. I have used both methods (in the old days). And I see a huge difference in the dogs, their ability to think is increased, they are smarter than when forced to comply and our bond runs deeper. It's even better than it was with previous dogs.

Also - please explain to me in detail how you would handle your dog walking into the kitchen, jumping up on the counter and stealing food. Would you just stand there and let the dog eat your chicken dinner? Would you take it away without saying a word? Would you give a gentle leash correction and a firm no when he tried to jump up on the counter? Would you give a firm no when he jumped up on the counter if you were not holding a leash? Would you let him continue to walk in the kitchen and grab food as he saw fit, and reward him on the rare occasion that he didn't jump up on the counter to grab food? Please explain to me in very specific details how you would handle this situation
Of course, if the dog was in the act of stealing food, I'd pull him off and probably tell him, "eh-eh!" I am not talking about not telling a dog not to do something once in a while. I'm talking about choke collars, yanking on the neck hard, intimidating a dog...spraying vinegar in his face and all the other brands of aversives I hear about. I prefer to try and set the dog up....set the environment up so that I don't have to use an over abundance of "no" and "eh-eh!" If a dog hears that all day long, he starts tuning you out. Those words need to have been associated with some pretty harsh punishment at one time or they wouldn't be stopping a behavior. Science shows that positive reward is more effective than positive punishment in the way dogs learn.

My Doberman, as a pup did this. He was so tall at an early age. If I forgot and left anything on the counter, he'd snatch it if I weren't looking. Now, if I had punished him harshly (a sharp NO! or hard yank) for that, the way dogs think, based on my studies of behavior, is that the dog would learn that it is dangerous to steal food in my presence, but safe to steal it when I'm not around. They don't have a sense of our morals so do not think they're doing something "naughty." It's just rewarding to them to get food off the counter. Jumping up works. It's a self rewarding behavior. So, they're getting reinforced for the jumping up everytime they get something good.

With Lyric, I realized quickly that I had to keep food off the counters religiously, never slipping up. After one or two times of his getting something, I kept those counters clean as a whistle at all times. He'd jump up.....nothing, no reward, no reinforcement. That behavior stopped after several more tries. No payoff, behavior ceases. When it stopped working for him to jump up, he stopped jumping up. When he'd hang out in the kitchen watching me cook and remained "polite"....standing back a ways, not being too pushy, I'd take him over a few feet further and ask him to sit or down and I'd give him a tasty, high value treat. He learned that if he sat nicely, he just might get lucky. There was no need to jump up on the counter.

He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.

My four dogs all lie down 10 ft. from my table when I have guests for dinner. They stay put for as long as the dinner lasts. When dinner is over and I'm cleaning the dishes, that's when they get some handouts for their efforts. They know they will get food and yummy food at that when they perform the behavior I like. This they learned gradually...in baby steps, rewarding frequently as they stayed. Now they only need a reward at the end of the 1/2 hour or so it takes to eat dinner. They lie there wagging their tails and watching us. They get told periodically how wonderful they are. They were never scolded, told "no" or yanked if they broke the stay. They were simply replaced and we'd start over...maybe rewarding a little closer together. And we didn't start out with a whole 1/2 hour of course. LOL. 1 minute, then 2, then 4 etc.
 
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stags14

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#45
Doberluv said:
First of all, positive reward, using primary and secondary enforcers (operant and classical conditioning based methods) is what I subscribe to. I put the vast emphasis on the motivation and reward aspect of it because science has proven that it is more effective to an animal's learning than is admistering aversives. Not only has this been demonstrated scientifically, but I am more comfortable with it and it works very well. I have seen who uses this type of training methods, their results and their credentials, where they work, what they work with and it is indeed impressive. These PhDs in applied animal behavior use mainly reward based methods and in many cases completely void of aversives. This is not to say that I don't tell my dogs not to do something. I do. I don't always take the time to do things the way I know they could be handled. I too, am still learning and developing new habits. I would not hesitate to pull my dog off the counter if he were jumping up and telling him, "eh-eh." And when he sat and stayed off, let him know that's what I want and reward him. I don't use collar corrections or harsh vocalizations when training obedience or agility. It's all motivation and reward...all of it. And my Doberman is very obedient, extraordinarily enthusiastic about whatever I ask him to do. His recall is superb and reliable and very prompt. He use to run into me, he was coming so fast...when he was a pup. LOL. I have used both methods (in the old days). And I see a huge difference in the dogs, their ability to think is increased, they are smarter than when forced to comply and our bond runs deeper. It's even better than it was with previous dogs.



Of course, if the dog was in the act of stealing food, I'd pull him off and probably tell him, "eh-eh!" I am not talking about not telling a dog not to do something once in a while. I'm talking about choke collars, yanking on the neck hard, intimidating a dog...spraying vinegar in his face and all the other brands of aversives I hear about. I prefer to try and set the dog up....set the environment up so that I don't have to use an over abundance of "no" and "eh-eh!" If a dog hears that all day long, he starts tuning you out. Those words need to have been associated with some pretty harsh punishment at one time or they wouldn't be stopping a behavior. Science shows that positive reward is more effective than positive punishment in the way dogs learn.

My Doberman, as a pup did this. He was so tall at an early age. If I forgot and left anything on the counter, he'd snatch it if I weren't looking. Now, if I had punished him harshly (a sharp NO! or hard yank) for that, the way dogs think, based on my studies of behavior, is that the dog would learn that it is dangerous to steal food in my presence, but safe to steal it when I'm not around. They don't have a sense of our morals so do not think they're doing something "naughty." It's just rewarding to them to get food off the counter. Jumping up works. It's a self rewarding behavior. So, they're getting reinforced for the jumping up everytime they get something good.

With Lyric, I realized quickly that I had to keep food off the counters religiously, never slipping up. After one or two times of his getting something, I kept those counters clean as a whistle at all times. He'd jump up.....nothing, no reward, no reinforcement. That behavior stopped after several more tries. No payoff, behavior ceases. When it stopped working for him to jump up, he stopped jumping up. When he'd hang out in the kitchen watching me cook and remained "polite"....standing back a ways, not being too pushy, I'd take him over a few feet further and ask him to sit or down and I'd give him a tasty, high value treat. He learned that if he sat nicely, he just might get lucky. There was no need to jump up on the counter.

He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.

My four dogs all lie down 10 ft. from my table when I have guests for dinner. They stay put for as long as the dinner lasts. When dinner is over and I'm cleaning the dishes, that's when they get some handouts for their efforts. They know they will get food and yummy food at that when they perform the behavior I like. This they learned gradually...in baby steps, rewarding frequently as they stayed. Now they only need a reward at the end of the 1/2 hour or so it takes to eat dinner. They lie there wagging their tails and watching us. They get told periodically how wonderful they are. They were never scolded, told "no" or yanked if they broke the stay. They were simply replaced and we'd start over...maybe rewarding a little closer together. And we didn't start out with a whole 1/2 hour of course. LOL. 1 minute, then 2, then 4 etc.
So using your own logic, the dog learns that he is rewarded when you are around, and not rewarded when you are not around.... Therefore when youare not in his presence, he will not be getting anything good and he must fend for himself.
 

Doberluv

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#46
He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.
Did you read my post? I reached my goal with my dog.
 

Roxy's CD

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#47
stags14 said:
So when you are walking her, and she pulls on the leash, are you going to change directions and go the way that she wants to go? If you didn't, the dog would certainly feel a physical pull. And that physical pull would go against everything you are saying. With your method, you would never want your dog to feel any type of force on the leash. That means you would have to follow her - and not have her follow you.

Who pointed out that your methods DIRECTLY resulted in your dog no longer being motivated? I am sure there are many people that train police dogs and assistance dpgs that would disagree with you.

And by the way - because you have already made up your mind about what the best methods are - you will see what you want to see. Just like when a mother says to the newspaper "There is no way my precious little Ted Bundy could be a murderer - he did not do those things"....
Nope, instead of using a voldhard the past few days, I've instead been using a high value treat and not once has she had any type of tension on the leash.

For two reasons:
1) She already respects the leash
2) I have been showing her, and making it "fun" for her to be close to me in proper heel position. The few times she stopped to sniff I firm "ah ah", and she was right back on track. Yes I have been treating her a lot, but I really want to enforce her reaction to this new, mainly positive method.

I know my dog. Period. I know that "balanced training" is NOT working. And if you've read any of my posts regarding the last few months of Roxy's intense obedience training you would agree.

It's very clear. Heeling/stand for exam. tail is between legs, ears are back and she verbally shows her displeasure. She has been known to snarl/growl and SHOW HER TEETH.

Isn't it funny that when we do activities that were taught with purely motivational methods, this highly "reactive dog" (to leash corrections/physical corrections) becomes this happy, very vocal animal that verbal praise is enough of a reward???

When the best treat, the happiest tone of voice NOTHING can motivate her when we do a stand for exam.? (which she has been getting leash corrections for)

The proof is in the pudding. I am NOT going to say that purely motivational works if it doesn't. I'm sure neither of these DOG TRAINERS on the board would be in business if they advocated something that DIDN'T WORK.

We will see in the next few weeks how much a change I see in Roxy. If it doesn't work, there is no change, I won't lie. It doesn't better either of our learning experiences.

But I do know that "balanced training" IS NOT working. Plain and simple.
 
W

whatszmatter

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#48
Doberluv said:
Did you read my post? I reached my goal with my dog.
Did you read the question, she asked what you'd do with a year old rescue?? not your own dog that you are the only one around, with no kids, and live in the country by yourself and are home with the dogs all the time.

What would you do with a year old rescue, one that has had many successes on counter surfing??? If you had kids, that every so often something was going to be left out?? and that is going to be the big pay off and reinforce it even more. You've read all the phd's and everything, so you should know this theory of reinforcement schedules planned or not. What would you do??
 
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#50
stags14 said:
So you have used corrections on your child. Then why wouldn't you tell your dog "No" in a firm voice?

Here is one of my biggest questions. I have been on here only one day and I have read multiple times by positive only proponents that a gentle but firm leash correction does not really teach your dog anything. Correcting is human psychology - not dog psychology. OK - but isn't a puppy corrected by its mother when it does something wrong? Of course it is. Is a puppy given tons of praise and treats from its mother when it does something right? Of course it is NOT.

It seems to me that corrections are a natural way of learning for the dog and that tons of praise/treats/affection is a huminization of the dog to make overly sensitive people feel better about little fluffy. What am I missing??

Also - please explain to me in detail how you would handle your dog walking into the kitchen, jumping up on the counter and stealing food. Would you just stand there and let the dog eat your chicken dinner? Would you take it away without saying a word? Would you give a gentle leash correction and a firm no when he tried to jump up on the counter? Would you give a firm no when he jumped up on the counter if you were not holding a leash? Would you let him continue to walk in the kitchen and grab food as he saw fit, and reward him on the rare occasion that he didn't jump up on the counter to grab food? Please explain to me in very specific details how you would handle this situation.
I think that you are skimming my posts. I have never, ever disagreed with verbal correction.:confused:
 
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whatszmatter

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#52
Roxy's CD said:
But I do know that "balanced training" IS NOT working. Plain and simple.
YOu have no idea if it works or not, you haven't found any balance. you went from leash corrections for everything (BTW if you're really good, you can make the leash correction a +R, wrap your head around that) with some treats and praise. I imagine your timing and level of corrections for certain things wasn't appropriate for your dog, and now you've gone to purely motivational in your mind. You never found the balance. nobody says its 50-50, but there is balance in this world, I don't need you to prove it to me with your dog.
 
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whatszmatter

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#53
dr2little said:
If you were to listen to her speak about positive punishment now, you'd see she as evolved away from PP. That was an article from 2000.
Same with Dr. ian dunbar, (Or so you told me), he used to say that dogs that had +P as part of their training were much more reliable in their training than those that had none. I brought that up and you said he's changed his mind since then too. But I want you to ask him this, Ask him, if he's noticed a change in the reliablility in the OB ring with dogs over the past few years, ask him if he's noticed that the passing rate has dropped over the past 10 years. Ask him if he's been part of any discussions over lowering the requirements for OB routines so more people can pass?? Ask him this, and get back to us with the answers.
 
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#54
whatszmatter said:
Same with Dr. ian dunbar, (Or so you told me), he used to say that dogs that had +P as part of their training were much more reliable in their training than those that had none. I brought that up and you said he's changed his mind since then too. But I want you to ask him this, Ask him, if he's noticed a change in the reliablility in the OB ring with dogs over the past few years, ask him if he's noticed that the passing rate has dropped over the past 10 years. Ask him if he's been part of any discussions over lowering the requirements for OB routines so more people can pass?? Ask him this, and get back to us with the answers.
First, why the "tude"? I have nothing against you, we simply disagree about training philosophies. Second, I don't have a direct line to Dr. Dunbar...don't know him personally but have just read another article written by him for APDT in this months issue. He still holds the same statistically based opinion. If your curious, why not ask him yourself?
It's funny how every time I state that I don't use these methods because I don't find them necessary, the gloves come off. Like your statement...here we go again:confused: WHY SO DEFENSIVE? You make your choices as far as training goes, I don't choose to use them because I don't find a need for them anymore. Experience and education has taught me otherwise and I don't know why that seems to bother you. I was someone who used moderate physical correction, it's how I was taught when I first started out. My training methods have evolved and I don't see any justification for returning to old methods.
 
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#55
whatszmatter said:
Same with Dr. ian dunbar, (Or so you told me), he used to say that dogs that had +P as part of their training were much more reliable in their training than those that had none. I brought that up and you said he's changed his mind since then too. But I want you to ask him this, Ask him, if he's noticed a change in the reliablility in the OB ring with dogs over the past few years, ask him if he's noticed that the passing rate has dropped over the past 10 years. Ask him if he's been part of any discussions over lowering the requirements for OB routines so more people can pass?? Ask him this, and get back to us with the answers.
Maybe you need to do your own research and get back to US!
Another good place to start would be to read the first and second editions of Jean Donaldsons 'Culture Clash' so you can see for yourself why and how she too has quit using Positive Punishment.
 

Roxy's CD

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#56
Doc, simmer down.

You know what works. You don't need to justify anything to these people.

Remember: I was all wild jerking Roxy around on the leash, and tonight I'll put your method to the test. I have faith in you :D
 
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whatszmatter

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#57
dr2little said:
Maybe you need to do your own research and get back to US!
Another good place to start would be to read the first and second editions of Jean Donaldsons 'Culture Clash' so you can see for yourself why and how she too has quit using Positive Punishment.
I already know the answers, I was there, and he did see quite a decrease in the reliability, but it seems nobody wants to hear it from me, so I say ask him yourself.
 

elegy

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#58
Roxy's CD said:
I know my dog. Period. I know that "balanced training" is NOT working. And if you've read any of my posts regarding the last few months of Roxy's intense obedience training you would agree.

It's very clear. Heeling/stand for exam. tail is between legs, ears are back and she verbally shows her displeasure. She has been known to snarl/growl and SHOW HER TEETH.
i would say that if you've destroyed all drive in your dog to the point that she's slow to respond to your cues or ignoring you altogether and unhappy to the point that she's tail tucked and trying to bite people, you are NOT balanced in your training with her.

just because you're giving leash corrections and handing out punishment as well as cookies does not mean there is balance. you can hand out cookies and still be far to harsh or far too nagging or far too negative in your training. you can give leash corrections (or other punishments, such as removing a dog who won't work from the fun until she settles down, which i've found to be far more potent with my dog than any leash correction ever could be) and still have a dog who is motivated and a happy worker.

a shut down or unhappy dog is absolutely not the result of balanced training. it's the result of heavy-handed training, or of punishment training, but certainly not balance.
 
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whatszmatter

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#59
dr2little said:
First, why the "tude"? I have nothing against you, we simply disagree about training philosophies.
I could ask the same, why the "tude", anytime anyone mentions corrections, mainly from you and Dober, we're antiquated, were' harsh, we're not enlightened such as you two seem to be. A lot of it comes from Dober. Everytime its well I've read Phd's and behaviorists and they all say....... Well no they don't, i've posted stuff by them before saying the exact opposite. Its like a few get a holier than though attitude, and really I'm not going to stand for it. Saying corrections have no place in training is wrong, saying you don't have a need for them fine. To say if you use them you need to be enlightened is talking down to and most certainly isn't based on all the science and every other word that gets thrown around in here to bring credibility to positive only training, and i'm not going to sit by and let it go.

Somebody asks a question about counter surfing, and they get an answer from someone that clearly has a good relationship with their dog. BUt they changed the criteria in which the question was asked. when questioned again, its a "did you read my post? response. We all read it, and she gave a very good description in a very controlled environment, but not many people live in that type of environment. I thougth it was a very fair and valid question.

I doubt we disagree about training philosophies very much. I train almost entirely motivationally for quite some time before anything some might consider harsh comes into play. I'd be willing to be my timing and my application of primary, secondary, bridging all that other stuff is pretty good, perfect no, but pretty good. I can easily see a difference in a dog that is all motivational, and a dog that has its foundation in motivation, but realized at some point it MUST comply. Just as I can see a dog that has been trained with pure compulsion creates an obedient dog, but very ugly relationship between handler and dog.

I'm glad you're out there doing your thing. I can tell you know quite a bit and are probably a very good trainer, but just as you sense "tude" with me, I kind of get the same thing back from you and some others. I don't really care to be "right", what's right for me isn't right for everyone else, and what's right for one dog isn't right for every other dog.
 

BostonBanker

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#60
Wow, my first time posting on a thread like this. I'm a little scared, but want to respond.

First off, I adopted a 1 year old rescue in February. And since then, I have never used physical punishment. Occasional verbal corrections when she is in a dangerous situation, such as when I taught her not to go under a horse's feet, but that's it. I taught positive dog classes for two years, and had a mix of students who "got it" right away, some who walked in the first night with their choke chains, and one memorable one who came in crying after a trainer hung the dog on it's choke until it passed out. I never met a dog who couldn't be trained positively, but met several who could have NEVER been trained with force.

a shut down or unhappy dog is absolutely not the result of balanced training. it's the result of heavy-handed training, or of punishment training, but certainly not balance.
This is, I think, one of the biggest reasons to go with all positive training. We've established that all dogs are different; nobody is going to disagree, right? So how do you know how much punishment is enough? There is enormous risk to going overboard with punishment. Dogs can shut down, turn aggressive, or have physical damage. I don't see any risk to screwing up with positive training, other than your dog (or you) has to try again, or maybe the dog gets some extra reward. I've worked with animals my whole life; I have very good timing for rewarding, or correcting if I chose to do so. But I'm not taking that risk.

I have a dog because I love them. I don't want to hit her, roll her, or pull on her, and I don't have to. With purely positive training, I called my little hunting dog off of a rabbit she was chasing the other night, and got an instant recall with an out of control "stub wag". I'm **** proud of her, and very happy that I didn't have to use force.
 

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