No Bulldog or Pekenese will Compete at Crufts

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I've never called it a conformation certificate, but that sounds like something i've been saying for a long time. They should be guidelines and if your dog is within them it should just be one part.

Especially for a breed like the GSD. Everything else should be based on health, temperament and work. This ever changing, fad of the week, mythical ideal they claim to breed to for conformation isn't doing the breed any favors in any sense of the word.

It's such a shame and people know it and just don't seem to care. There have been working line dogs that have shown very well conformationally. There was a rather good one a year or two, maybe 3, i lose track that had beat some well known show dogs.

and IMO should have. very well built and temp. and drive that was admirable, as it should be, he was a working boy. like a couple weeks previous he had beat these dogs in a confo show, but when it came time to do the seiger show, he was put near the back of the line. Behind all those dogs he had beat just a week or two before.

Why??? because he was a working dog. It had absolutely nothing to do with conformation or any of that other stuff they say is important. It's based on bullshit at higher levels. money and politics, that's it.

I can appreciate it takes a lot of time to show dogs, but i'm sorry, i just have a hard time respecting the whole process.
 

SarahHound

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My family had considered a Clumber as well before we got our Pug. The Pug, while I don't have him anymore, lives with a nice old lady who was alone, and he is now about 12 or 13 I believe. Still a healthy little truck of a dog. I opted out of Dobermans for myself and my boyfriend for the lifespan reason as well. I just couldn't handle it, and seeing other Chazzers talk about thinking of their still-young dogs possibly leaving soon just broke my heart too much.

It's a shame, Clumbers seem like the perfect Spaniel for me. And they are definitely the cutest (sorry other spaniel owners!).
I love Clumbers, but their health puts me off. My Aunt had one, and she only lived to 7.
 

SizzleDog

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I would really love to see something like this. If dogs could say "pass" under 3 judges they could be awarded a conformation certificate. Then owners who are more interested in conformation could still pursue a CH.
I would like this as well. Or at least, something similar to it. I believe this is how IABCA works, though some of the dogs that finish their IABCA championships are about as pet-quality as I could ever imagine.

I never was able to finish Kaylee, mostly due to money and time. I didn't have the money or time to pursue her majors, especially as a relatively unknown owner handler with a moderate dog. There's only so much money I'm willing to throw at a dog I *know* is a good example of her breed for an actual conformation title.

What I do know about Kaylee is that her singles were earned honestly, and she has beaten other dogs in competition that were far more "esteemed" than her. Breed on two separate occasions over Group-winning specials, and a BOS over the bitch that won the Grand Prize Futurity at Nationals? Owner handled? Continuously beating other bitches that went on to finish their championships with the right handler (and most likely a ton of cash) ... Yeah, I can live with that, and take that as proof she's a decent example of her breed from a conformation standpoint. ;)
 
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Jeez I just remembered that usually when I take that online "what breed are you?" quiz I get Clumber Spaniel. I hope this doesn't bode ill. :eek:
 

Aleron

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I never was able to finish Kaylee, mostly due to money and time. I didn't have the money or time to pursue her majors, especially as a relatively unknown owner handler with a moderate dog. There's only so much money I'm willing to throw at a dog I *know* is a good example of her breed for an actual conformation title.
I ended up giving up on Jagger's Ch when he was one point shy of it. He had some nice wins, including a 5 point major (owner handled) but pursuing his last couple points just got to be ridiculous. I had to worst luck and ended up wasting a bunch of money that I should have used for performance entries. I don't think I'll ever pursue a CH to that extent again. If they can't finish easily enough, I just just won't finish them. There's lots of other stuff to do :)
 

ravennr

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I remember when I was little, around I think, age 6. The first book I ever read was a book my mom had, ancient book, of dog breeds and their standards. It was a pretty basic book, not detailed like the AKC standards book I'd later buy. It had other information in it as well. I learned to read very young, but I had that book on me at all times at age 4. I was thoroughly convinced, DETERMINED (I mean, imagine me, very tiny, balled fists of fury-type determined) to become a professional show dog handler.

I thought I was going to be the shizzzzzznit. I thought "this will be easy". I got a little older, then we got the internet when I was about 9. WOW, so much information! I spent my nights and weekends just looking at dogs, using Encarta to research dogs, looking at breeders webpages to find out about dogs, anything I could find. Then I realized "okay, this should still be pretty easy, but I'm gonna have to work at it, that's okay, I love dogs, I can do it!!"

Then I grew up. I got more into the dog world. I attended shows. I discovered the politics. I started researching into the general idea of bloodlines, then into specific bloodlines of interest*, and into breed clubs writing standards. I discovered, hey, some breeders don't breed to the standard! And that's OKAY! Look, that Boston Terrier's muzzle is much longer than the one I saw at Crufts or Westminster! Then it hit me; "I don't want to do this, this is not for me, this is something I will leave for those who are able to handle the politics and the emotion and all else that goes with the dog showing world, but this is not for me, no" and around 17 I finally completely dropped the idea that I would ever become a professional handler. And I am fine with this. I have decided, roughly, what I want to do with my life, and while it's not exclusive to dogs, it is what I love and am passionate and knowledgeable about in general, which is animals, so that is good enough for me.

*FOOTNOTE: I always found it interesting that many people, even people that aren't heavily into the dog world as we are, can rattle off bloodlines of the APBT like it's just the most common knowledge ever. I've always been curious as to why that is. At the time, I was not aware that I had been studying mostly, sometimes even solely, the bloodlines of APBTs. When I became aware of it, I noticed other people could name quite a few too. I assume the breed's general reputation has a lot to do with it, and kennels like to put bloodlines out there with this breed in particular, by name, but some of them know some deeper game lines as opposed to just knowing the lines that produce stocky blues.
Anyways, I thought that was interesting.


I'm rattling. Sorry. :dunno:
 

lizzybeth727

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One of the examining veterinarians released a statement. Apologies that I cannot c/p the text, but here's the url:
I was able to c/p, and I added in the paragraph breaks.

It's too long for one post, so I'll have to break it up.

I think she makes some good points, particularly in the last several paragraphs.

VET Alison Skipper, who carried out the high-profile vet checks at Crufts on the Saturday and Sunday has sent us her statement:

"One of the few positive things about being one of the two independent vets at the centre of this controversy is that I am, at least, independent. What I am about to write is my own opinion, and nobody has told me what to say, or even asked me to say it.

Most of the other big players in this story have a vested interest of some kind: they are important people in the Kennel Club, or the British Veterinary Association (BVA), and so can’t speak completely freely, or they are well known people within the dog world, such as important judges or exhibitors. "

Will Jeffels and I are not any of these things: we trained as vets because we like animals and wanted to work with them, and we volunteered to be the first vets implementing the new show checks because we supported the initiative and decided – rashly, perhaps – to get involved. I haven’t even seen Will for 20 years or so – we didn’t meet during Crufts – but we are united in our willingness to stand behind the reforms.

I grew up on the fringes of the dog show world. My mother took out our family affix in 1952, and was a regular breeder during the 1950s. I’ve been coming to Crufts since it was at Olympia, with the clickety- clackity old wooden escalators up from the tube station. I’ve been a small animal vet for 22 years, and have had pedigree dogs of my own throughout this time.

I used to be very active in Australian Cattle Dogs, and was one of the driving forces behind an international effort in 1996 to source samples to develop a DNA test for PRA in the ACD; this was rewarded by the development of a gene specific test by OptiGen in 2004.

I wrote the veterinary column for Our Dogs for over five years. I am currently (unless they kick me out over this) a member of four breed specific canine societies. At the moment, I have four dogs of smaller breeds. Over my time in dogs, I’ve done a bit of showing, including at Crufts, I’ve bred three litters (with one DIY caesarian!), and I’ve done club level agility for several years. I work in a small animal practice with lots of dog breeder clients, including some successful show kennels, and a large proportion of working dogs.

However, I have never shown dogs seriously, and the one time I judged a match at a fun day, I realised that judging was not for me. What I am, I hope, is an ordinary vet with a strong interest in, and love for, the pedigree dog, a good degree of clinical competence, and enough personal integrity to do what I think is right.

I know how the dog world works, but I know very few of the main players within it, and these, I think, are the reasons why the KC and BVA appointed me as one of these first two vets.

To go from a quiet life one week to being at the centre of such an emotive controversy the next is not easy, or fun. Why did I agree to do it? It wasn’t for the money; we didn’t get paid. The KC gave me food for the weekend, a bed for the night, and the chance to watch the groups on the days I was at Crufts, which was all very nice but I could have stayed at home and watched it on TV, and saved myself a lot of trouble.

I’m not stupid: I knew it would be extremely controversial, and that I would probably have to make decisions that would be very unpopular. And it wasn’t without personal risk; if I were found guilty of false certification I could be struck off the veterinary register and lose my livelihood. That’s a pretty strong incentive to be accurate when carrying out a clinical examination.

I agreed to do this because I thought it would help to improve the health and welfare of pedigree dogs. Personally, I see nothing wrong in the ethical production of pedigree dogs, except perhaps for the argument that there aren’t enough good homes out there for the dogs there are already. A healthy, happy pedigree dog obviously has as good a quality of life as a healthy, happy mongrel. However, nobody is compelled to breed pedigree dogs. It’s something we all choose to do.

And it seems to me that, if we are choosing to bring new dogs into the world, it’s only right that we should do what we can to produce dogs who are not physically prevented from having a good quality of life.

As has often been stated, there are two problems with this that are undeniably more of an issue with purebred dogs than with cross breeds: the various genetic issues that afflict different breeds, and the issues of health and welfare that relate directly to exaggerated conformation. For some years, ethical breeders have made huge progress in improving welfare through the various schemes for monitoring inherited disease. This is hugely important, and has clearly helped to improve lives for thousands of dogs; breeders should be proud of what they’ve achieved in this area. But inherited disease is only one side of the coin, and until recently, the other side of the coin, the problems caused by extreme conformation, has been rather overlooked within the dog fancy.
 

lizzybeth727

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cont'd:
The two sides are quite separate; a breed can have very moderate conformation and be plagued by serious inherited disease issues, such as the Cavalier, or it can be relatively healthy in terms of invisible problems and yet have clear issues with some aspect of its body structure. This high-profile breed scheme is a hugely important step towards reducing the problems associated with extreme conformation. Nobody ever said, "Oh good, I’ve produced a puppy which is going to suffer pain as a result of the body shape I chose!”, but it’s all too easy to overlook chronic low-level discomfort, and I think it’s undeniable that some breeds are associated with issues of this kind.

Dogs that have always had exposed, irritated inner eyelids aren’t going to scream with pain or stop eating because their eyes hurt; they don’t know any differently, but surely the same dog would have a better quality of life if its eyelids fitted better to the eyeballs. It must be better to be a Pug who can chase its friends in the park than to be a Pug that struggles to walk along a path. Surely these things are not in dispute, or they shouldn’t be.

The brief that Will Jeffels and I were given by the KC was very clear: we were not meant to assess conformation in the same way as a judge would, and we were not meant to penalise a dog because of any aspect of its shape or structure, unless we felt that attribute had led to a problem with its health or welfare. So we couldn’t reject a dog just because it had a short face or lots of skin folds, for example, or because we didn’t like the way it moved; only if it had trouble breathing, or a skin infection, or was lame, as a result of its structure.

We were chosen to do this, rather than specialist vets, because Steve Dean thought it would be unfair for judges to be over- ruled by, for example, specialist ophthalmologists, because they might notice things that no judge could be expected to see. He thought that experienced general practitioners would know what’s normal and what isn’t – we earn our livings doing it – and would be able to see obvious problems that a judge could also see.

The KC told us exactly what they wanted us to do, and then left us to go and do it. They did not try to influence our decisions in any way. We could have passed – or failed – any or all of the 15 dogs quite freely. It is sad that some dogs failed, but I think it shows that there is a need for this scheme: if we had been assessing a group of Borzois or Cairns or Dalmatians I don’t think any would have failed.

Obviously, I am bound by professional confidentiality and cannot comment on any of the dogs I examined. The owners are not so bound and I would be happy for any of the owners of the dogs I examined to make public the form I signed, in its entirety. I wrote several comments on most of them, and many of the comments I wrote were positive, even on dogs I failed. I have enormous sympathy for the owners of the dogs that were failed. It must have been disappointing, embarrassing and humiliating, and it gave me no pleasure at all to do it.

There are several general points from the examination process, however, which I think are worth emphasising. Firstly, there are many possible reasons for failure. Some of them may be temporary: lameness, for example, may have gone by the next day, but one fundamental rule of veterinary certification is that you can only attest to what you see before you at that moment; you cannot speculate on what the animal might have looked like five minutes earlier or five minutes later. Also, as with judging, there may be problems that are found on close examination of a dog that would not be visible from the ringside.

Secondly, it’s obvious from the photographs on the Internet that some of the BOB winners which failed were indeed of more moderate conformation than some other dogs within that breed. It must have been particularly galling for those owners to fail. However, we weren’t being asked to judge whether a particular dog was better than the breed average; we only examined the winner, and if the winner still had a problem that affected its welfare on that day, our task was to say so. If it displayed the least extreme conformation in its breed, then the judge had done the best job they could from the stock available, whatever the end result; and if the winner showed far more moderate conformation than would have been the case a few years ago, then that is still to be praised, even if there was still a problem.

One thing that I am angry about is that the media coverage is focused so exclusively on the dogs who unfortunately failed. I wish there were more attention on the dogs that were passed. Nine dogs were judged the best of their breed, passed as free from issues that were affecting their health and welfare, and went on to compete in their groups, with several being shortlisted by the group judges. Those breeds should be enormously proud of what they have achieved, because in many cases the winners were indeed of far less exaggerated conformation than they would have been a few years ago, which is a great cause for celebration.

Those breeders have done wonders. For example, even Jemima Harrison has written positively about the winning Bloodhound on her blog, which is remarkable. I was really glad to see ‘my’ Bloodhound in the big ring, moving soundly and with eyes free from discomfort. That’s what it should all be about.

It’s natural that emotions should be running high; change is often difficult. And it’s inevitable that there will be teething problems in a new and unprecedented process. Everyone who was involved in this endeavour will have learnt from it, and certainly there are some aspects of it that can be improved. Will Jeffels and I strongly feel that the initiative is worthwhile, and we are continuing to support the KC in its efforts to promote healthier conformation.

Dog showing is a sport, a hobby. The world would still spin on its axis if there were no dog shows. If we choose to spend our leisure time, or in some cases our careers, in the world of dog showing, we should remember that we wouldn’t be able to do it without the dogs, and the least we can do in return is to choose healthy body shapes for them to live their lives within."
 

ravennr

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That was a good read. She made very good points, and I agree with her that the media focused too much on the failed dogs and not enough on the successes of those that passed. There was more to be celebrated than not.
 

Shai

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Yeah I especially love the end on that one

"As my children were growing up, I used to tell them that they had better learn the lessons I was teaching them because I was teaching them those lessons with love. If my kids didn’t learn, the world would teach them the same lessons but not give a whit about their feelings or self esteem. I suspect this is where we are now. While we were minding our own business, the AR bunch was sucker punching us. How long do we keep taking the hits?"​

Soooo what you're saying is that you (plural) weren't paying attention back when the lesson could have been learned relatively painlessly so now the world is driving it home to you instead? When you could have prevented it all along by taking it seriously from the beginning and learning along the way?

Me thinks this metaphor isn't saying what they meant to say. But, ironically, is actually remarkably accurate.
 

ravennr

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It's so easy to blame animal rights extremists for this.

Sorry, lady, the animal welfare advocates, who respect the enjoyment of dog showing and don't want it all abolished, are also just fine with a dog having to be healthy to be able to properly represent its breed.
 
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It's so easy to blame the ARists. Too easy. When in doubt point fingers at extremists no one wants to be grouped with. Sorry people, but being able to see that these dogs are unhealthy, being able to see something needs to be done and watching the people that are in the breed do NOTHING does not make you an animal right activist, it makes you a dog lover.

Seriously though, they need to stop putting out these articles because all they do is convince me more of how much they are in denial, that they are way to close to the issue and can't see the forest for the trees.

And no, sorry but dogs that look like something that might resemble a pit bull being killed in droves is NOT comparable to a selected few breeds in a HOBBY 'SPORT' having their health checked. This is not something you are forced to do. This is not something that is life or death. This is a dog show.

And I was never under the impression that conformation was for the dogs but I am so incredibly saddened by how the people shouting the loudest against this move by the KC don't mention the dogs. They talk about the judges, they talk about the breeders, they talk about the emotions and heartbreak. They never mention the dogs and I find that to be the most telling thing of all.

Would I love to see this for all the breeds? Heck yes! And I really hope that will come but until then, for a first step picking the breeds that are the unhealthiest it was a good one. And once again, these dogs were not failed because they are exaggerated (or not as the case may be) but because they didn't pass the vet check. The vet was not checking conformation, the vet was not deciding if the rear angulation of the GSD was extreme. The vet was checking the health. And their dogs couldn't pass. The. End.
 

Emily

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The vet was not checking conformation, the vet was not deciding if the rear angulation of the GSD was extreme. The vet was checking the health. And their dogs couldn't pass. The. End.
Yep, I think that's a critical point. The vet was not looking at the angulation of the GSD, but rather its movement. If, as a result of extreme angulation, the dog was ataxic, then it would have been disqualified - because it was ataxic, not because it was over-angulated. It seems pretty clear the vets knew they were not their to judge conformation.
 

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