Labradoodles

and those people can choose to look elsewhere if they wish for that.

Living here and seeing some REAL working dogs doing what they were bred to do has opened my eyes to how strong they are and how reg mean little to nothing (as an owner who shows confo)... NONE of these dogs on the farms I saw have pedigrees... but their work is proven time and time again and if I ever do get a BC you bet it's going to be from here upapered and all. The place I board my horse had a litter of BC puppies, man I want the mom badly, she's unregistered, but put her with sheep and you know she's going to put her heart and soul into it. THAT is what would be more important to me alongside health if going that route. Pedigree is important don't get me wrong (for also looking back on health), but it's not going to be a done deal.

Because some people can handle those problems when they arise and have the money, time, education, extra help, and devotion to do them. Just because you yourself wouldn't want to or couldn't, doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be able to or shouldn't.

But then the question that begs to be answered is, why will they not register there dogs? Pedigree is a big deal. Would you not want to know if the sire worked just as good -or better?- than the dam? Would you not want to know how the pups this dam produced worked? Just because the dam is a superb herder, doesn't mean she passes that on down to her offspring.

Mom2Dogs, my heart breed IS the Border Collie. A working Border Collie to be exact.

Because they don't care

Lizmo—I have always wanted a BC since owning one when I was younger, but what always put off because I could never find a breeder that was what I wanted. I show confo with my whwt and always will with the breed, so I wasn’t going to clash with a breeder who worked their dogs but were so against AKC and have no desire to own one that was "show quality." I moved here and had the opportunity to meet some great BCs who are EXACTLY what I am looking for—except they aren’t registered and some do not even health test (go deep into the country), but you can have the opportunity to meet relatives, and if you want to see both parents its not a long journey to see the stud (LOL, he’s most likely on the farm down the road). When you see a litter of puppies with relatives who you know can work and when you see the 15 yo grandma/pa without health issues still sleeping in the barn you know they are hardy dogs. Would I ever dream of getting one of these dogs if I were in the states? No… most likely because I could/would never find them. Pedigree isn’t important to these farmers…. Workability and health (think only the fittest survive) are. I like that. Even if I move back to the states (which I don’t see happening, but that’s not the point), I would make the flight over here just to go and get one.

Phew, that turned out longer that I thought.

Hmm. Definitely lots of "food for thought" here. My I ask where you? Obviously not in the US?

I'm kind of confused on a few things, if you wouldn't mind clearing them up. First, I'm not sure I see why you are against those who don't like the AKC? What does it matter if they don't want there dogs they produce registered with the AKC? Especailly a Border Collie.

I TOTALLY agree with you that Working ability and Heath/Temperment should be the #1 things when picking out a Border Collie. And honestly, I'm not against purchasing a dog that isn't registered but has the PROVEN working ability. It wouldn't be hard to register that dog with the ABCA.

Though, I still like my ABCA registered dog

If I were to go to a breeder I would want to see health test results, pedigrees, etc., but there are some breeders who breed working dogs specifically for themselves, hardly ever to sell, without health tests and pedigrees, who I respect for their choices. Their dogs speak for themselves.

Holland.

I'm not, don't remember where I said that, but because I show in AKC with another breed I made the choice to not go through someone who is against them

You can have a pedigree and not be registered. I would NEVER buy an AKC or CKC registered working dog. Its kind of an oxymoron.

Why register? If you are breeding working dogs the kennel clubs are of no use to you anyway. Why spend the money and time?

Lots of performance people get rescues or mixes. No registration papers usually there.

There are some pretty amazing agility and flyball dogs (some have gone to the worlds...) that are a little JRT, a little BC, a little staffie with some others. Nope not registered, but yes there is a pedigree. If I got one of those dogs I would know their grandmother went to the worlds. That to me means more than a registration number.

Some people do care who their pets 7 times great grandmother is. Some don't. But why does that make the people who feel differently than you wrong? It might surprise you though that some people who have no desire to ever register still can tell you who their dogs 7 times great grandmother was.

I agree. I know of breeders who will breed when it is best for the dog, even if that means 2 at the same time. I dont' like breeding in winter. So that would mean (if I had 2 girls to breed that cycled together) waiting a whole year. And what if a breeding doesn't catch? Some breeders will intentionally breed 2 litters close together for that reason.

I guess you don't know about the ABCA and USBCHA for Border Collies (working breed)?

I agree, I will NEVER have any working breed registered with the AKC, CKC, or whatnot.

This is what I'm refering to. I was wondering why you made this decision? Since it's obvious if you want a working bred dog of the highest quality there is a massive split between AKC and the breed's working registery.

Also, I was wondering what it matters to you if you get a dog from someone who doesn't like the AKC. Doesn't mean you'd be doing AKC events with the dog.

(You don't have to answer the last quesiton, I was just personally wondering the reasons )

Yes there is a separate registry for BC here. Just like we JRT people have our own. But you can still have pedigrees without registration numbers.

Just cause it matters to you (and that is great) does not mean in matters to all people.

"Designer" breed crosses, such as Labradoodles, disturb me for only a few reasons.

Having never bred a dog, I can't really comment on if I think their practices are appropriate. I'll leave that matter to our resident geniuses

As for the breed itself. Crossing two breeds is a gamble. It was done to create the breeds we know today, so I understand why it is done. I just don't think it's responsible to breed two different breeds NOW, when we put so many homeless dogs to sleep every year. I KNOW that we create breeds to fill a niche. But what niche are we filling? A niche for the average American family? Consider the articles that we read about people who simply don't care. Consider the amount of money spent on crappy food that deteriorates the dogs health in time, the lack of money spent on routine veterinary care and the disposable society we live in. People are told certain things about their new "breed" that may or may not come true, considering the very few generations that are in the dog's family history. Will the dog end up more like a Lab, or a Poodle? What if the family purchases this puppy with the mindset that they like the Lab mentality temperment with the Poodle's coat? What if they get a Doodle more like a Poodle than a Lab? If they purchase the mutt from a less reputable breeder with no return clause in their contract, where does the dog go?

In this instance, it appears the breeder is trying to be as reputable as possible. I just hope that they are ensuring that their puppy buyers realize that are buying a MUTT, with no guarantee of how that dog will turn out. I think people's ignorance over the types of dogs they are purchasing is what upsets me the most. They don't take into account the behaviors of the two breeds in their dog, they are buying for looks and the possiblility of low-shedding, hypoallergenic dogs. They are paying ridiculous amounts of money for a dog that is a gamble when they think it's a guarantee.

I can say that I'm of the school of thought that breeding is for the betterment of the breed itself. So in general, I'm biased about this subject.

Finally, I can say that if someone would want a Labradoodle or other designer breed, and have done the appropriate research, breeder research and other responsible dog person responsibilities, then it's their choice. I don't necessarily have to agree with it, I just have to hope that they got all the information they needed.

Just my opinion.

As far as the OP's website... I am incredibly unimpressed. Honestly.

Look at each of the Labradoodles; see ANY consistency? None. They have dogs that look like red, ungroomed Poodles, dogs with ringlets, dogs with wavey hair, dogs with long hair, shaggy dogs, dogs that range from 14" to 24". WTH? What are they breeding for? In their "About Us", I see almost nothing in regards to an actual goal (besides "we have allergies"), nor any association with any clubs that are actually trying to make this a breed. They are breeding DD's - not for therapy work, or for anything really, not even health. It's already been mentioned how unforgivable breeding 1 year-old dogs are... why do they even get any health tests, at all? Breeding a 1 year-old is breeding a puppy, who isn't even fully grown, who could turn out to have HD in a few months for all they know.

I am also appauled by their wording... and their description of Labradoodles, particularly the coloring. UGH. Is Red, Apricot, Caramel, Gold, AND Cafe really appropriate? Aren't each of those basically the same color, of varying shades? It just makes them look really... dumb. As does their description of their Poodle studs. Both of them are apparently from "a line of champions" and "royalty" and "show quality". I find that both hard to believe, and pretty much pointless. Those dogs aren't shown, and they aren't going to be shown. And any breeder who sells off their "show quality" Poodles to some one who is only using them to get a higher likelihood of low-shedding Labradoodles is a horrendous breeder, indeed. The majority of their dogs are F1B. So, they're basically 3/4 Poodle, 1/4 Lab - what is the point?

As far as what Mom2dogs is saying about working day in and day out being the ultimate testament to a dog's health... I whole-heartedly agree. But, these Labradoodles are not being worked, to my knowledge. If this breeder had skilled hunting/retrieving dogs who worked on a daily basis, I would have a very different attitude towards them. Still, I think it's reprimandible to breed ANY dog, regardless of how healthy or amazing they were, until they are at LEAST adults at 2 years old. I also agree that a written pedigree/registration is not important when the breeder knows their dog's lines like the back of their hand, and has owned dogs from those lines for generations; but, this breeder appears to have been in "business" for only a few years, with lines all over the place from F1 to "multi-gen" (whatever that means) to "ALF5PP". Just a mess, IMO.

Wow, I forgot about this thread!!

:lol-sign:

Shows ya how much I pay attention!

Anywho, I happened to see that breeder in a newspaper or something, and I was like "Hummm, let's see what Chaz thinks". They are fairly local to me as well.

*Sigh* It seems like NONE of the breeders in my area are responsible, good breeders. Pisses me off, I'm prolly gonna have to go out of state to get me a corgi.

Hey Hey Hey.

Am I out of your area?

*teehee*

Their "health testing" is absolutely irrelevant. One of their bitches that they just bred was born Dec 20, 06', yet they list her as being OFA excellent. She's not even 2 years old yet! They have another bitch born Nov 30, 06' as OFA excellent, again she's not 2 years old. In total they have 4 dogs under 2 years of age being listed as passing OFA test. Keep in mind they only have 9 "Labradoodles", and only 2 of those are over 2 years old. Also their oldest mix isn't even 3, being born Nov 17, 05'. And the 2 poodles they have are very young as well; the oldest is just over 3, born Mar 22, 05'. Based on their listing of OFA tests for dogs under 2 years I wouldn't believe any of their health testing results.

:lol-sign: I apologize, seriously.

But really though! EVERY SINGLE BREEDER I have looked at doesn't fit my standards. Rob says I'm being a snoot about it, a dog is a dog, blah blah.

Nugget, are you looking at Pems or Cardis?

Ah, don't feel too bad. . .I only have one good breeder in my area. *sigh*

But for my thats not a bad thing, since the one breeder is breeding the breed I love.

Pem mainly. Keep in mind I don't plan on getting one for awhile yet. Just looking at who and what at the moment.

Sorry Lizmo for not getting back to you sooner...

I made the choice to show whwts with AKC because I am fortunate that people in the breed are not drastically going with fads and breeding out the terriertude (LOL, I've heard many times an argument between two breeders on how THEIR dogs are tougher than the others... ), we have people thinking bigger is better, longer necks are prettier, or watering down their temperaments but not as drastic as a BC. Plus, I am hell bent on NOT allowing people to change the breed.

AND showing is fun. I'm a major person, 99% of the times I only show my own bitch if there are majors. Any dog can finish, but not all can finish with actual competition.

It doesn't matter to me, and a few BC breeders I have looked at do allow their pups to be ILPed with AKC for performance... this was a looooong time ago, but after having a discussion with someone (funny enough it was at an AKC show) at the group ring who was against them, I decided to simply go with a "farm dog" with no politics involved whatsoever (going to be just a pet anyways) IF I ever decide to add a BC to the mix, but I won't even consider them again for another decade or two so maybe things will change during that time.

Not sure how much their puppies cost, but what gets me is that most doodle breeders have outrageous price tags on their pups. Way up in the thousands. Its becoming normal to see them asking for $2,000 per pup.

I need to go back and take another look at their website.