BC breeders for me

OT bur for those that know, is Sporter Collie an insult? Do most BC breeders who focus on sports not appreciate it? Or Elegy, do you not like it if Steve's called a Sporter Collie?

I ask because honestly, I think it's fun to say and shorter than Sport Bred Border Collie so I do use that term but if it's insulting I'd move away from saying it.

ETA: Patron is so cool looking, I love seeing pictures of him

It's insulting to call them sport bred collies just like its insulting to call a (insert working breed) dog a show bred dog. Mostly because there is still a strong demand that border collies belong on the ranch, working sheep, and not playing silly sports or worse showing in conformation thus being labeled Barbie collies.

So yeah, insulting depending on ones opinions I suppose.

*i obviously don't own any collies so this is all outside perception, I train with a ton and really appreciate them, finding myself very jealous at times(especially when they're more flexible than my bitch) but I'm in no hurry to dive in myself.

I know several HN borders as well that are very successful in agility and have not seen any indication of ETS. I loooooove their temperaments and if I were looking at getting a BC, I would most likely go there.

I think the term sporter collie originated as a jab towards the breeding of dogs for sport, but a lot of people have adopted it as an affectionate term. Same with the term "barbie collie" for show bred BCs.

Laur, I don't know if you've been in touch with Patrick Shannahan about his dogs yet, but I would still recommend it. I don't recall his stance on AKC/ILP registering, but I know he prefers to have dogs wait until adulthood to be altered. I don't know if the working type dogs are the kind you're interested in still, but I thought I'd drop in a suggestion!

I don't know much about AKC. Considering you might not be participating in trials with your dog in obedience/agility/herding whatever until the dog is mature, anyway, is it possible to ILP/PAL a dog as a young adult?

Yes, Arnold almost did get his AKC registry a few weeks ago and he's 7.5 yrs. (then I took him to run agility after 6 years off, hilarity ensued and I rehung up that leash)

TBH If I were looking to get a great BC, I'd probably go to the farm one of my friends got their very sport capable BC from. Dogs bred for herding, no health checks but the dogs work every day and people from all over get herding dogs from him. And now there's now a few in performance homes too. I think he sells puppies for $300 and no contract but I know he will take dogs back if they don't work out. That's just me though and such a breeder doesn't fit what Laurelin said she wanted, so I listed BC breeders who do and who's dogs I have liked.

I would think it'd be more comparable to calling show bred BCs Barbie Collies? I don't think most show people find the term show bred to be insulting or working bred for that matter. Barbie Collie, I'm not sure LOL I know a lot of people who show and call them Barbie Collies but I don't know really any show BC people though.

You see, I can understand why Barbie Collies could be insulting, but Sporter I just don't get. I mean, I guess I put it up there with the way some Aussies address conformation people as Showies (Showey's? Can never remember). Just a shortened but descriptive name. And if a BC breeder was breeding primarily for sport I want to know why they find it insulting.

I know some show BC people and they will use the term sarcastically especially when talking about performance stuff they are doing with their dogs. Most sport people I know in real life are very adamant that their dogs are 'working bred' border collies even if the dogs come from a big name sport breeder. I do think some of them are starting to try to 'own' the term sporter collie though.

I'm still very interested in the working trial bred type dogs but I really am realizing lately that I need health clearances on this next dog. And the more research I am doing now to look at what trials are available around here, I do think I will regret not having a dog that could do AKC performance. So those two things are new requirements. You can PAL at a later date so that would be the route I'd go if I need to neuter and then PAL the dog.

I just want to look at all the options and find the kind of dog I want to live with and a really good breeder to go with.

There are people in BCs that think if you do not breed primarily for work the dogs are not border collies. The idea behind these names are that neither sport bred collies or show bred collies are actually 'border' collies. The fight is over the name, the working folk will tell you the sporters and the barbies are not the same animal, and are not real border collies. So they need to be called something else. It is absolutely an insult coming from certain people.

People generally don't take well to other people telling them that their dogs are not really the breed they think of them as.

I don't have a horse in this fight so to speak (at leas yet). I'm pretty indifferent either way.

Now see, that I can understand a bit more. I know the BC world is pretty vicious and that if you don't have a ranch bred dog from a line of working farm dogs you typically have to defend your dog more often than not.

I guess I just like the term Sporter Collie because I still think of it as a Border Collie, just one bred for primarily for sport, which I don't have an issue with. And like I said, it's fun to say I think I would so introduce a BC of mine as a Sporter Collie if I had one. But, I'm not in the BC world and I don't want to be going around insulting people's dogs or breeding, especially when I don't mean to be insulting.

Sorry to derail your thread Laur!

Laur, is it because of your experience with Mia that you want to have the extra security behind your dog's health with OFA certifications and such? I'm not questioning your choice at all, btw, just asking.

A lot of people say it's just the BC people, but really it's everywhere in the world of breed enthusiasts. You're always going to need to defend your dog because snotty bitches are going to pick at you. Sometimes they do it because they genuinely think they have the breed's interest at heart, but most do it because they have nothing better to do and it's fun to rile people up and put others down.

BC people can be mean, but Laur you've dealt with Papillon people, who in my experience are a thousand times more snarky, petty and bitchy. lol

Partially. Just want to stack the odds. However I will say Mia's breeder has been very supportive of answering questions about her knees, which is great. I'm not unhappy about that, but I want to stack the odds as much in my favor as possible. Between Mia's knees and Summer's back, my ability to pick out sound sports dogs seems to be pretty cruddy. There's a bit more to that lately that just has me somewhat spooked about dog health...

Bottom line is the more open the breeder, the better. Power tripp is really appealing to me because of that.

Oh this is truer than you know.

Yeah I can see how Barbie Collie could be insulting for sure. It makes me laugh though that even some other conformation people call them that (they don't necessarily say it in an insulting way the way working people do though more like "I really like the Barbie Collies"). But I don't know how working, show or performance/sport bred is insulting and as such, Sporter Collie doesn't seem insulting to me either. Really, I don't think most people I know who do sports with their BCs would care less about if working line BC people think their dogs are "real BCs" or what the BC Board crowd would say about them. Their dogs were bought and sometimes bred for performance sports and that's what is most important to them.

Oh and this will be the absolute last dog I can get for hopefully a long while (until Summer and Beau are gone) so if this dog doesn't pan out for competitive sports, I don't even want to think about it.

I stumbled across this breeder: http://bordercollies.tv/
Contact point border collies

Don't know much about them but their videos are awesome and agility seems to be their specialty

I'm checking out Power Tripp, and I agree with you about how open they are about their dogs' health. I like that a lot. I've never met any of their dogs or dogs from their lines, though, so I can't comment on that.

Yeah those are the "CP" dogs referenced in a couple places in this thread

If this is a concern, and I can see why it would be. Why not look for a young adult, either failed breeder dogs or rescues? That way you could have them fully checked out and know what you are getting. Many amazing (really amazing!) agility dogs around here have come from the BC rescue. The rescue here often has young athletic dogs needing homes. Sport would (will?) make a kick butt agility dog and we got him when he was 11 months.

Woops! lol probably should've put that together..

I don't mind Steve being called a "sporter collie" (and call him that myself) as long as it's not being used as an insult. I really don't have much to do with the hardcore non-sporting Border Collie people because my dog is immediately judged as bad because he didn't come from a ranch and he is merle. (Only "color breeders" breed merle dogs, don't you know?)

His breeder really isn't strictly a sporter collie breeder, I suppose. I mean, Steve has Red Top (Patrick Shannahan) dogs behind him on his mom's side and his mom is off a cattle ranch. Folly's dad was a herding dog who never did any sport stuff. I'm not sure how often she's trialed him, but I know he works sheep effectively (and he's the son of the only red BC to win the International). The last litter she bred with the intention of making herself a new herding dog to fill the shoes of her girl who is getting old. But I still think of her as breeding primarily for sport dogs, since most of her dogs *are* sport dogs, and most of her puppies go to sport homes.