Prong leashes

Kayota

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#21
Depending on the situation, I can see the point I think that was trying to be made. I have seen a lot of overfriendly outgoing dogs (think the stereotypical golden) who when a bit nervous respond by being even more friendly. You could pop them all day and the just keep wagging and kissing. But, do a couple slow calm pets, connect, and calmly ask for something and they sit.

I didnt see where she said she grabbed the dogs face, gave him a hard stare and growled at them...that would be totally different.
Thank you... If it helps, this dog was the friendliest, most hyper field-bred lab I've ever met. He was just licking my face the whole time. And once again I'm tired of defending myself. I didn't mean to cause such a stink... I definitely wouldn't do this with any dog and I don't understand why everyone is pushing me when I already said I agree. "do a couple slow calm pets, connect, and calmly ask for something and they sit." is EXACTLY how it happened... No real "staring" or "grabbing" involved as I keep trying to say. Once again I'm sorry I came of the way I did, but I really wish people would just drop it already. No one has any idea what the situation was or how the dog was acting and rest assured that if the dog had looked any way uncomfortable with me touching him that I would have backed away immediately. I don't just walk up to strange dogs and start "grabbing" them...
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#22
Just a heads up but if you come across knowing better than others on a forum you're bound to be challenged. Prongs are properly used with quick pops, not restraining pulls. Prongs are a useful, helpful tool. To dismiss a tool entirely and in turn snub ones nose at those that utilize said tool will only make those come to defense of the tool on this forum, on either side of the fence.

I personally don't need anyone grabbing my dogs faces, no matter how gently, they may bite. Also though I don't let techs wander off with them as a rule do we agree there. Lol

I am sure you did nothing wrong and I understand your point, the flip side is some dogs do much better with less physical commands, or requests, many dogs however flourish with them. You've just got to be carefully aware.
 

Kayota

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#23
I don't see where I dismissed them entirely at all... I said, and I quote, "I don't really like prongs... There was a lab on one at the vet office I'm job shadowing at, and it just pulled non stop regardless! I felt so bad for its neck."

I expressed my opinion. I also never snubbed my nose at anyone or ever said anyone was wrong for using them. Just that IN MY OPINION, I do not like prongs.

I agree with you on the latter two points... Just fail to see where I "dismissed" them "entirely" and then "snubbed my nose" at those who use them. Why can't I express a simple opinion without having to defend myself? Nowhere did I say anything along the lines of that. Never said I know better either.
 

Dekka

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#25
Actually the only way I like to see prongs used (if at all) is to let the dog self correct and not to use any sort of a pop on it.

To the OP your dog is small, so I doubt you are in danger of being dragged (the only clients I ever said ok to a prong were those who physically couldn't restrain their dogs when training.. even then it was our last option. They do have their place, but IMO its not a great 'go too' tool)

Train your dog how you want them to walk. Likely he has no idea.
 
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SevenSins

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#26
I don't see where I dismissed them entirely at all... I said, and I quote, "I don't really like prongs... There was a lab on one at the vet office I'm job shadowing at, and it just pulled non stop regardless! I felt so bad for its neck."
Prongs don't "pull non stop" on their own. A prong collar is simply a training tool. If someone is "pulling non stop" on a prong, it's the person MISusing the tool that is to blame, and not the tool itself.

Actually the only way I like to see prongs used (if at all) is to let the dog self correct and not to use any sort of a pop on it.
Trying to let a dog "self correct" on a prong is a bad idea with my breed (and a lot of other terriers), most I've owned would just hit the end of the lead and choke themselves out with the collar, popping is much more effective. I'd personally rather see someone gradually popping the lead and collar than see a strong dog hit the end of the lead hard with a prong on, but hey, that's just me.
 

skittledoo

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#27
Actually the only way I like to see prongs used (if at all) is to let the dog self correct and not to use any sort of a pop on it.
This is how I use(d) mine. We don't use the prong very often anymore. Cricket wasn't quite getting it at first with clicker/treats. Sometimes she would walk fine and I would reward reward reward, but then the next few tries she would be all over the place even with higher value treats. When I added the prong collar it only took a couple times with her self correcting for her to take a step back and start focusing more on me, the treats and actually training to walk on the leash properly. I will occasionally use the prong collar as a refresher if she is having a dur dur dur moment, but we really don't need to use it much anymore except in really highly distracting situations where she is likely to pay me no attention no matter what. We are still training in those higher distraction settings and the plan is to get her to the point where we hopefully never need the prong collar again.
 
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#28
Actually the only way I like to see prongs used (if at all) is to let the dog self correct and not to use any sort of a pop on it.
This. Both of mine responded to the self-correct without having to hit it hard though.

Tallulah and Kharma both walk well -- 95% of the time. That 5% with Kharma is critical though, plus, having it on her means there is no question that she IS under control.

The 5% of the time with Tallulah keeps her from having her neck rubbed raw from a regular collar. And then there's the "no question of control" even though it's silly with her, just a matter of the public perception because she is a muscular APBT.
 

Dekka

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#29
I'd personally rather see someone gradually popping the lead and collar than see a strong dog hit the end of the lead hard with a prong on, but hey, that's just me.
This is a fairly simple fix (and yes I breed and train terriers, I know all about their temperaments) dont' give them enough leash to get up a good head of steam. A foot or less of slack is plenty.

And by letting a dog self correct you don't have to worry about having uber perfect timing (as long as your leash is held short enough)
 

Cthulhu7

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#30
So you're saying that he'll learn if i just give him very little room?

Btw i watched the video that tucker&me posted. I'd love to do that, but i have yet to find treats he'll eat. Planning to go buy small batches and try them out. Local shelters can always use the extras.
 

Dekka

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#31
No with a prong the trick is to make sure they can't get a lot of momentum to hit the end of the leash and a big ow.

On the treat front. Try cheese, or baked liver. Or if you are going store bought try Zukes or other small soft treats. Freeze dried liver is often popular. Don't go for the hard cookies, even when dogs do like them they are a pain as the dog spends a fair amount of time hoovering for crumbs. Another hint is to make sure he is hungry. Do it before a meal, or skip a meal to go train.

Use life rewards. No progress whilst pulling. Don't let pulling work. Sadly most puppies get trained to pull (accidentally) and they learn it quite well. Then we they get big people punish them for what they have been taught.
 

Cthulhu7

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#32
Seems like the pulling is more a distraction issue than anything else.

I just remembered he likes mozzarella. I'll probably try that in the house, and then at the park.
 

Dekka

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#33
Oh sure most dogs pull because life is stimulating and exciting. But think of a puppy. You take puppy out.. puppy is sooo excited to see the world and pulls all over the place. Puppy sees exciting blade of grass down the sidewalk and pulls towards it. And low and behold puppy gets to that exciting plant!! THe puppy might think pulling = getting to the fun stuff. The puppy never knew that the walk would happen and he would get to the fun stuff even with out the pulling.

Then puppy grows a bit bigger and the person at the end of the leash notices the pulling and then they start punishing the dog for doing what has always worked.
 

Danefied

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#34
Trying to let a dog "self correct" on a prong is a bad idea with my breed (and a lot of other terriers), most I've owned would just hit the end of the lead and choke themselves out with the collar, popping is much more effective. I'd personally rather see someone gradually popping the lead and collar than see a strong dog hit the end of the lead hard with a prong on, but hey, that's just me.
See and to me, with a breed like yours that have little or no pain receptors :)D), there is a very real possibility of the dog habituating really fast to the correction - regardless of whether the dog self corrects or you correct him. Then you’re back at square one.

I’m all about self-control for excitable/distractable dogs, and teaching attention behaviors using the distraction as cue. IOW - see strange/interesting thing = check in with mom. Won’t solve the pulling issue entirely, but is an important part of the process.
 

Cthulhu7

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#35
Oh sure most dogs pull because life is stimulating and exciting. But think of a puppy. You take puppy out.. puppy is sooo excited to see the world and pulls all over the place. Puppy sees exciting blade of grass down the sidewalk and pulls towards it. And low and behold puppy gets to that exciting plant!! THe puppy might think pulling = getting to the fun stuff. The puppy never knew that the walk would happen and he would get to the fun stuff even with out the pulling.

Then puppy grows a bit bigger and the person at the end of the leash notices the pulling and then they start punishing the dog for doing what has always worked.
Honestly i would not be shocked if that's the case here. Sadly i don't know how he was raised, but it definitely wasn't by a trainer.

Wow that sounds worse than it is. Essentially, he has a few bad habits.

NEW QUESTION (don't feel like posting a new topic)
Can a muzzle or head collar help with dog on dog aggression? I'd like to take Cthulhu to the park to meet other dogs, but I'm worried he'll just go dominant and get his ass kicked. if i took him there with a muzzle to prevent biting and barking, would that help?
 

AllieMackie

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#36
I agree that prongs have their place in training and work remarkably well when used correctly on the right dog. That said, I don't feel a prong is for you, at least not yet. There's far more positive and mutually rewarding games you can play while walking to improve his focus on you and improve the loose leash walking. They don't work overnight, but they work in the long-term.

I'm lucky in that my dog was never a hardcore puller, but in adolescence he definitely had times where he would pull me to get to something good, pull when he saw another dog, pulled when he saw a shiny thing, etc etc.

What worked for me was a combination of several techniques used together. I used an Easy Walk harness for a spell (the front-attaching no-pull harness folks keep mentioning) which was VERY beneficial, and rewarded him positively when he kept the leash loose on that harness. I used treats, I used a friendly voice, I would pick up my walking pace excitedly... like Dekka said, life rewards. If he pulled in the EW harness, he got turned around, and didn't get anywhere, so it was a good start to teaching him what he was supposed to do, as opposed to simply what NOT to do like a prong.

When "weaning" him back onto regular harness and collar walking, I used a combo of things:

- "be a tree" when he pulled. When he pulled, I halted in my tracks. If we started walking and he pulled again, I'd halt immediately. He would get frustrated (and so would I, sometimes) but I was consistent.

- when he walked loosely, I would give positive happy voice praise and give periodic treats for walking loosely. The treats would be random, a sort of bio-feedback for doing what I like him to do.

- the Look At That game. This works especially well for distractions like people, other dogs, whatever. Use a clicker or your voice to mark. Before trying this on walks, teach him to make eye contact with you to a command of "Look at That. Click/mark and praise handsomely when he does, and build it up to the point of having him immediately look at you for the command. Then start using it on walks at random times, and build on that so that when distractions appear, he knows that he can look at the distraction, but that looking at you = a yummy treat and happy owner! Finn and I have brought the LAT game out once again since he's he's been having focus issues, and so far I've seen some great improvement. :)

Hope that helps some!
 

skittledoo

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#37
Wait... Are you talking about a dog park? If you are worried about dog aggression then maybe the dog park is not the place for your dog. Honestly, a LOT of dogs are not candidates for dog parks. I have one that is great at dog parks and another dog that I would never ever bring to one.
 
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#38
Honestly i would not be shocked if that's the case here. Sadly i don't know how he was raised, but it definitely wasn't by a trainer.

Wow that sounds worse than it is. Essentially, he has a few bad habits.

NEW QUESTION (don't feel like posting a new topic)
Can a muzzle or head collar help with dog on dog aggression? I'd like to take Cthulhu to the park to meet other dogs, but I'm worried he'll just go dominant and get his ass kicked. if i took him there with a muzzle to prevent biting and barking, would that help?
No, I think the point was the puppy has always been allowed to pull. YOU putting a prong on him would be punishing for something that has always worked and they have no idea is "wrong".

At least that was how I took it, dont want to put words in Dekka's mouth.
 

Danefied

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#39
NEW QUESTION (don't feel like posting a new topic)
Can a muzzle or head collar help with dog on dog aggression? I'd like to take Cthulhu to the park to meet other dogs, but I'm worried he'll just go dominant and get his ass kicked. if i took him there with a muzzle to prevent biting and barking, would that help?
If he doesn’t have good doggy manners, then a dog park is the last place he needs to be. Dog parks are generally not a good place for unsure dogs.
 

Cthulhu7

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#40
It's not so much a manners thing. I read online that taking him to a dog park, but staying outside of the fence might help him see how other dogs behave. Also he'd get better used to the alarming amount of smells. I figured this might be even easier if he was hindered from barking, or worst case scenario turning on me. Which, for the record, he hasn't done.
 

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