Fila Owners (questions, what else?)

Dictator

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DK,
That was clearly a very hateful post. I do hope that makes you feel better. Perhaps you should take a trip to Brazil to tell others who have been into Fila for generations that they have it all wrong? I am going back for two months in September and I would be glad to introduce you. What you need to take into account is that I have owned 100's of this race of dog and been around thousands. I am not speaking from owning one pet.
Things are what they are. A Fila is Fila because that is what was and continues to be needed. Necessity is the mother of invention, that is what made the race come to be. It may be difficult for you to understand and my English is for worse than my Portuguese, so please forgive me.

Thank You,
Nestor Costa
 

Dictator

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Okay.. I know we've had a zillion "Renee tell us about the Grrrls" threads, but I have some questions that I'm almost positive weren't asked. I can't remember them all... but I'll add as I go.


Tell me about the white-brindle dogs. I've heard them described.. Are they just pale fawns?

What do you think of breeders who sell every pup they have as breeding quality except the few marked as "pets" and why?

What about breeders who don't socialize their pups before they go home to new owners?

How was it bringing your fila puppies home? Did they hate you at first, or were they wary of you?

Are all Filas as intelligent as Kharma and Shiva?

Why is there such a HUGE variation type still, even though there appears to be many dogs considered breeding stock?

I've seen a Fila that honestly resembles a cow on one Fila breeder's website.. I believe it was Eshabeta. Why on earth did they breed her? I know temperament and ability come first in determining breed-worthiness, but she is rather extreme.

What do you think of Filas who have their hips high above their shoulders (like 4 inches or more)? Does it hurt them or cause structural problems? I think it's a tad bit extreme.

How are your Filas with strangers petting them on neutral territory? Why? How do they react when people come onto your property? How about when you bring people into your home? Do you have to lock them up!? I read that on several sites, and it made me twitch.

Fila mixes--I read in one article (only one, mind you.. couldn't much more info on it) that they are unstable. Fact or fiction? I'm inclined to say fiction, but I really have no grounds to judge upon.

What do you think of breeding for Filas with less ojeriza?

Okay.. all for now. More when I remember. I apologize if I asked any dumb ones, I only got a few hours of sleep last night.
It is about time I answer these questions.

1.) I have never seen the color that you have spoken of in Fila. It is not native to the race.

2.) I do not interfere with the polices of others

3.) These is confusing question. The reason for socializing is to make dogs social with strangers correct? Perhaps I am not understanding. Fila is not a social race with strangers.

4.) Fila puppies imprint on new owners at the age of 8 to 12 weeks. This time is crucial to introduce people that the Fila does not hate later on in life.

5.) I do not know these dogs. Fila are an intelligent race.

6.) In Brazil it is only attitude that defines Fila. Looks are not so important.

7.) I do not speak of others. I would suggest you ask this person directly.

8.) High in the croup ads to speed of chase and power through the attack.
Hitting power comes from the rear of Fila.

9.) Strangers cannot put hands on Fila. Fila will not let them. The dogs ,must be put up around strangers if they enter the Filas home. Fila only accept the touch of owners. They must never be off leash around strangers nor should strangers be allowed to approach the dogs.

10.) I do not know of mix Fila. They should be like other mixes I think.

11.) Ojeriza is Fila. The most important trait. Less Ojeriza means less dog.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Thank You,
Nestor Costa
 

Gempress

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I find Nestor's posts to be very interesting, and am very glad he joined this conversation. I can't pooh-pooh the posts of someone who's lived in Brazil with filas all his life, and whose family raised working filas for generations.

To be honest, I find his posts to be more true to what the Brazilian fila temperament is supposed to be (according only to what I've read online.) If all filas were like Kharma and Shiva, then I don't see why they'd make a rule in Brazil saying judges don't have to touch a fila in the ring.

I've looked on the websites of breeders of brazilian filas. One of them said "We even have ONE fila you can touch!" Their other dogs will not tolerate strangers at all, and they take it as a matter of course.

Before I came on Chaz, I met a fila breeder at a Petco in Austin. Lovely senior lady who had a female fila with her. Hubby and I were in love with the dog and asked about it. She said "These dogs are very good guardians of family. Only get these dogs if you have experience with guardian breeds." Hubby said he had rotties in the past, and she shook her head: "There's absolutely no comparison between the two." She said the female was the ONLY fila she ever had that was safe enough to take into public. We asked about socialization, and she said, "No, that doesn't make a difference. They're hard-wired to be that way. It's like trying to teach a golden not to fetch. Don't get these dogs if you can't handle that trait."

That's not to say that everyone else's observations are wrong. To me, there is one thing in this thread that jumps out at me---there is obviously a HUGE divergence in the fila lines worldwide. I don't see one as being better than the other, but I wonder if the lines will eventually split entirely.
 
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I find Nestor's posts to be very interesting, and am very glad he joined this conversation.

To me, there is one thing in this thread that jumps out at me---there is obviously a HUGE divergence in the fila lines worldwide. I don't see one as being better than the other, but I wonder if the lines will eventually split entirely.
I think you are spot on with this Gempress and hopefully everyone can identify with this and then kiss and make up lol!

I had suspected this for quite some time as I was always confused about how so many people spoke of their animals. You know things like - I took my dog to the pet store / dog park etc etc.

What we should all be gratefull of is that we all have a "Fila" that is good for us as individuals and that noone here has a dog that is too sharp or soft for them. We all have animals that have the correct temp for our needs or living situation. Ultimately it is a credit to the breeds working heritage and ability to "evolve".

Gempress also asked
but I wonder if the lines will eventually split entirely
I think that this is what we are seeing as was the case with the English Staffordshire bull terrier coming to the US and now being two breeds - Amstaff and APBT or the Rotweiller now being essentially a different animal when comparing American lines to East German lines or the differences in the Cane corso Americano / Italiano.

At the end of the day who cares? I got my guys and they do what I need them to do and you guys seem to have exactly what you need.

I think perhaps we should consider that due to this thread many of us here have learnt a bit more about our beloved breed................
 

Zoom

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I briefly worked with a girl who works/ed at Nodib and she was telling me about how they had one Fila that was mellow enough to go to Petsmart, which sounds like the same dog. That would be a neat little "six degrees of seperation"!
 

bubbatd

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The thing I've gotten from these 127 pages , is that NO ONE is going to change Nestor's mind ! Only he owns Filas and that's that ! So Fila owners ........you might as well tear up your registration papers and advise your breeders that you want your money back for falsifying the breed .
 

Dictator

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I find Nestor's posts to be very interesting, and am very glad he joined this conversation. I can't pooh-pooh the posts of someone who's lived in Brazil with filas all his life, and whose family raised working filas for generations.

To be honest, I find his posts to be more true to what the Brazilian fila temperament is supposed to be (according only to what I've read online.) If all filas were like Kharma and Shiva, then I don't see why they'd make a rule in Brazil saying judges don't have to touch a fila in the ring.

I've looked on the websites of breeders of brazilian filas. One of them said "We even have ONE fila you can touch!" Their other dogs will not tolerate strangers at all, and they take it as a matter of course.

Before I came on Chaz, I met a fila breeder at a Petco in Austin. Lovely senior lady who had a female fila with her. Hubby and I were in love with the dog and asked about it. She said "These dogs are very good guardians of family. Only get these dogs if you have experience with guardian breeds." Hubby said he had rotties in the past, and she shook her head: "There's absolutely no comparison between the two." She said the female was the ONLY fila she ever had that was safe enough to take into public. We asked about socialization, and she said, "No, that doesn't make a difference. They're hard-wired to be that way. It's like trying to teach a golden not to fetch. Don't get these dogs if you can't handle that trait."

That's not to say that everyone else's observations are wrong. To me, there is one thing in this thread that jumps out at me---there is obviously a HUGE divergence in the fila lines worldwide. I don't see one as being better than the other, but I wonder if the lines will eventually split entirely.
Thank you. I really do not understand why people get so upset. If I where a cardiac surgeon, would people get angry if I told them how the heart works?

Hard wired is a very good way to put it. The Fila was created to protect. The same way a Husky was created tp pull sleds. A Fila that does not protect or a Husky that won't pull would not have been considered a good example of the race to those who needed the dog to do it's function.

Thank You,
Nestor Costa
 

Brattina88

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I've been following this thread as well. I've found it to be very informative and I've actually learned several things so far. Keep it coming!


Hard wired is a very good way to put it. The Fila was created to protect. The same way a Husky was created tp pull sleds. A Fila that does not protect or a Husky that won't pull would not have been considered a good example of the race to those who needed the dog to do it's function.
That is a good example IMO. Huskies, though perhaps more challenging, can be taught to walk nicely on a leash (NO PULLING).
So, I can see how some Fila's can tolerate strangers much more than others. It not only depends on their lines, but their owners, and their own judgement/brains ;)
 
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If all filas were like Kharma and Shiva, then I don't see why they'd make a rule in Brazil saying judges don't have to touch a fila in the ring.
Kharma and Shiva are miles apart temperamentally. Shiva is from Brazillian show lines. She will guard, and would, I think, protect, but she has to work herself up to it with barking and making noise.

Kharma is from working lines - the same as my Buffy, they are very closely related. The difference between Kharma and Buffy is that I over rode Charley and took Kharma out and let her learn how to move about and survive in the world. She is every bit as sharp as Buffy when she is home, or in the car, or if we are out after dark. BUT, if Buffy had had the chance to learn as Kharma has, she would still be alive.

Having a chance to learn how the world works and how to survive and thrive in the environment doesn't negate or even impair the ability to guard in the least. On the contrary, it enhances that ability. I don't ever have to be without my guardian by my side, because she has learned and understands what is going on at all times. If she were unsocialized and unable to move about in the world, she wouldn't do me a helluva lot of good as a guardian, would she?

All the credit belongs to the dog and its ability to learn, to understand, to make good decisions and to grasp the concept of cause and effect.
 
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Kharma and Shiva are miles apart temperamentally. Shiva is from Brazillian show lines. She will guard, and would, I think, protect, but she has to work herself up to it with barking and making noise.

Kharma is from working lines - the same as my Buffy, they are very closely related. The difference between Kharma and Buffy is that I over rode Charley and took Kharma out and let her learn how to move about and survive in the world. She is every bit as sharp as Buffy when she is home, or in the car, or if we are out after dark. BUT, if Buffy had had the chance to learn as Kharma has, she would still be alive.

Having a chance to learn how the world works and how to survive and thrive in the environment doesn't negate or even impair the ability to guard in the least. On the contrary, it enhances that ability. I don't ever have to be without my guardian by my side, because she has learned and understands what is going on at all times. If she were unsocialized and unable to move about in the world, she wouldn't do me a helluva lot of good as a guardian, would she?

All the credit belongs to the dog and its ability to learn, to understand, to make good decisions and to grasp the concept of cause and effect.
Awesome post! I'm nowhere near done reading this thread yet, but this was something I had wanted to address also. No amount of socialization is going to over-ride a dog's instincts and natural abilities. This is why DA can't be socialized out of a pit bull, this is why the need to chase the neighbor's cat can't be trained out of a Greyhound, this is why the need to protect and guard can't be socialized out of a Fila.
 
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Dogs are also terrible at generalizing. Its SOOOOOOO annoying when you want the dog to walk nicely on THIS road rather than THAT road, but it comes in handy in these circumstances. Whith in the absolute limits of its temperament a dog can usually learn to behave one way in public, and another in the yard.

Right now, my ACDmix will upon seeing someone at the park, sit and demand to be pet. If they came into my house? It would not be pretty. I'd imagine filas can differentiate in the same way, although the actual reaction would be different of course.

You can bend instinct of course. We had a retriever that caught and killed a pet rabbit after the cage was left open and it escaped (outside). A few years later (plus a bit of mellowing) and a new rabbit and inside, that rabbit could climb onto the same hunting trained retriever. Our current rabbit nut might not allow that, but we can have the hamster in its ball on the floor, when she will relentlessly try to uproot a chipmunk under the shed.
 

DemitriousK

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Absolutely. The protection required, however, from my Fila versus (apparently) a Brazilian plantation Fila are worlds apart.

The issue that I have is with the alarmist attitude that a Fila in a public place isn't a Fila unless it's feasting on the dead flesh of innocent bystanders. This may be true in Brazil, where the Fila are raised and trained and rewarded for such behavior, however the Fila is most undoubtedly intelligent enough to come to understand what is and isnt proper in other circumstances.

Our goal when socializing Bella has *nothing* to do with liking anybody. We have taken Bella with us places, and shown her people for exactly the reason that she needs to understand *our* world to be a part of it. We have never *EVER* forced her to like somebody, and we have never *EVER* forced her to allow somebody to touch her that she doesn't desire. the things that she needs to understand are things like: "A handshake is not an aggressive action", "neither is a hug", and "the mere existence of a stranger does not necessarily make them a threat."

If I were living in a place where I feared for my life daily, I would not teach her these things. But because she is an amazingly intelligent and understanding creature she's definitely understanding these things.

Now as for being a guard dog. I fully expect that if Bella were ever put into a situation where someone was genuinely threatening my family that she would protect us without regard to her life or the life of our attacker. I've not trained her to *like* people, but I have given her the necessary skills and tools to make *BETTER* decisions in *MY* world and *MY* life.

Saying that all Fila will immediately maim and kill any stranger on site (based on the breed in one environment, raised, trained, and bred one way) is a lot like saying that all humans rape and kill based on a couple of visits to death row.

The better observation is that all people have the POTENTIAL to rape and kill, just as all Fila have the potential to maim and kill. Some humans kill in defense of their home and country... so do some Fila. some humans kill because they are completely deranged psychopaths...

I wholeheartedly acknowledge what the breed can be in different situations, under different owners, and in response to different requirements. I firmly believe that the stories of these plantation Fila are true, and think no less of the breed or Dogs. they were very loyally being what their owner required them to be... And THAT is very Fila. My requirements are different, and my baby Bella is living up to my requirements and meeting my expectations exceedingly well. And that is very Fila too.
 

Cheza

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I waded through all this, very informative!
Good points made. I'm especially interested in the difference between the brazilian dogs and the ones in the us; the former who are not socialiazed as a rule, and the latter who are.
 
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I traveled to the Mexican world show with Nobib's Primo and his owner trainer Tina N . Primos pics will be here this week working on them now.

great dog great trainer..
 

Cassiepeia

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Hard wired is a very good way to put it. The Fila was created to protect. The same way a Husky was created tp pull sleds. A Fila that does not protect or a Husky that won't pull would not have been considered a good example of the race to those who needed the dog to do it's function.
As far as I can see, having read the entire thread...this is exactly what every single person here knows and believes (even those with no experience in the breed). No one is arguing that point. ;)

I agree with Cheza...very informative thread. :D Glad it was started.

Cass.
 

Dictator

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My question and this is no attack is why Fila? Fila are very specialized race, I do not see the logic if you live outside of that specialization why choose Fila? Too me it is like buying a NASCAR to go grocery shopping.
I live in current situation that is not ideal for Fila. This is why now I have Dogo Brasil. Help me to understand why one would choose Fila for suburban companion.

Thank You,
Nestor Costa
 

bubbatd

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Maybe because they love the breed !! ?? I've had Goldens which never retrieved anything but shoes and toys when asked . I've known fox hounds who have never met a fox . Terriers who don't even know what a truffle is .
 

Amstaffer

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Yeah....and my pit bulls have never competed in the pit! I hate that whole "If you don't use it for its "Original purpose" then don't get it" argument.

Dog breeds and their uses are ever changing and evolving to meet there historical partner's needs and wants.
 

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