Ceasar M. has his own mag
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So... should no dog ever be put down for behavioral issues? Personally, I would MUCH rather a truly human aggressive dog that cannot be rehabilitated be put to rest than live out the rest of their life in a state of shut-down. I truly feel that many of the dogs that CM considers "red zone" cases are not safe, stable, or mentally sound and the last approach I would take to such dogs is one of extreme punishment and supression. Supressing those behaviors does not change them, other than teaching the dog not to display what they are feeling. A dog whose aggression is supressed is a dog that requires constant negative reinforcement, and a dog that is liable to explode at any moment. D: IMHO. I would much rather go ahead and die than live my life not functioning at all and living in so much fear of punishment that I'm no longer myself.
It's also dramatically emphasized on the show how quickly Cesar "cures" dogs of their issues.... on almost every episode I've seen, "elapsed time: 2 minutes 35 seconds" or whatever pops up more than once. It's like we're supposed to be impressed. When, in reality, any one with ANY common sense knows that learned, ingrained behaviors are not going to just vanish into thin air after 2 minutes and 35 seconds of verbal and physical punishment.
It's also dramatically emphasized on the show how quickly Cesar "cures" dogs of their issues.... on almost every episode I've seen, "elapsed time: 2 minutes 35 seconds" or whatever pops up more than once. It's like we're supposed to be impressed. When, in reality, any one with ANY common sense knows that learned, ingrained behaviors are not going to just vanish into thin air after 2 minutes and 35 seconds of verbal and physical punishment.
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Why not re-home the dog with someone that might be able to change the behavior?.
A good example of what your talking about was on this past Friday's Rescue's ink episode. There was this family that had a pit bull that was aggressive and they kept it locked up in the back yard in a small pen with a tarp for a roof. They gave the dog up voluntarily to Rescue Ink and then Rescue Ink took the dog to a training place for 3 weeks of training. After they got the dog back there was an additional week or tow of training the dog to be non-aggressive. They showed the dog later in the show that the dog totally changed and is now living a happy life with a new owner.
That's just one example and as I said before Cesar will trade dogs with a person if they have a dog that's aggressive. Dogtown rehabs dogs also.
I adopted Lola from an owner who couldn't handle her behavior. She was afraid of other dogs and supposedly did not like kids. The previous owner after seeing Lola after she rehomed her with me said "Lola seems to be a lot happier with you than when she was with me". Today Lola has her CGC and is a therapy dog. Lola could have been put down by the previous owner but she did not do that she found an owner that would be able to retrain her and that's what people should be doing.
A good example of what your talking about was on this past Friday's Rescue's ink episode. There was this family that had a pit bull that was aggressive and they kept it locked up in the back yard in a small pen with a tarp for a roof. They gave the dog up voluntarily to Rescue Ink and then Rescue Ink took the dog to a training place for 3 weeks of training. After they got the dog back there was an additional week or tow of training the dog to be non-aggressive. They showed the dog later in the show that the dog totally changed and is now living a happy life with a new owner.
That's just one example and as I said before Cesar will trade dogs with a person if they have a dog that's aggressive. Dogtown rehabs dogs also.
I adopted Lola from an owner who couldn't handle her behavior. She was afraid of other dogs and supposedly did not like kids. The previous owner after seeing Lola after she rehomed her with me said "Lola seems to be a lot happier with you than when she was with me". Today Lola has her CGC and is a therapy dog. Lola could have been put down by the previous owner but she did not do that she found an owner that would be able to retrain her and that's what people should be doing.
1. Dogs are not equal to people.
2. What causes people to be dangerous and what causes dogs to be dangerous are not the same.
3. One of the big issues with death penalty for people is the justice system does convict innocent people too often. I don't advocate putting dogs down arbitrarily, but if I own the dog, I live with the dog and I am well aware of how dangerous the dog is, then putting him down is not being down without sufficient cause.
We generally don't euth people who are old and ill and have zero quality of life either. Would you suggest we allow dogs to continue their life even though they may have terminal or crippling diseases that prevent them from enjoying their life?
2. What causes people to be dangerous and what causes dogs to be dangerous are not the same.
3. One of the big issues with death penalty for people is the justice system does convict innocent people too often. I don't advocate putting dogs down arbitrarily, but if I own the dog, I live with the dog and I am well aware of how dangerous the dog is, then putting him down is not being down without sufficient cause.
We generally don't euth people who are old and ill and have zero quality of life either. Would you suggest we allow dogs to continue their life even though they may have terminal or crippling diseases that prevent them from enjoying their life?
We are not talking typical 'bad behaviours' for one. And two the sort of people who can handle extreme behaviour problems are very few and likely already have dogs (or don't want dogs with problems) And three, (and biggest IMO) In the year(s) it takes to maybe fix one dog hundreds (thousands?) die that could have been helped in that time. There comes a point when you need do save the most you can.
Let me tell you the story of Sammy...
Sammy was a young JRT who came into rescue. He had a conflicting story, he was supposed to be highly aggressive, and had bitten, but people who met him said he was sweet. Then he went to a foster home, where they said he was crazy. The person who transported him to me said he was adorable and sweet, he was fine with me on the way home. He was fine when he met hubby the first time.
Next morning he acted like he wanted to eat hubby. So we did TONES of work with him. He was fine with all women and kids just hated men. I had all food come from hubby. Sammy was fine as long as there was food. As soon as the food ran out he would freeze, and look up and thank doG I had him on leash!! He never got better.
To add to this he would shake, not the nervous dog shake, I have had a few JRTs come in that do that. This was like an excess of energy shake. He could do swimmers turns off walls at chest height. I could scale almost anything and what he couldn't scale he would attempt to chew through.
Then one day he decided he wanted to eat kids. NOTHING had changed. Bet my life sort of sure that nothing had happened. And when this dog hated things he lost his brain. He would foam and air bite and spin in his crate if he saw the object of his 'hate'. He would grab the bars and pull till his gums bled. He would fling himself at the door.. even after the person left he would continue for a while. It was scary.
So what would you do with such a dog? The rescue seriously though about seeing if they could adopt him out to a lesbian couple. But I said this dog is a high risk at getting loose, and unlike dogs with fear issues.. he would fixate on the first man or child he saw and attack. Even if someone wanted to take him he was too large a liability for the rescue to adopt out.
Taking him in to be PTS was heartbreaking. He was still happy with me....
Let me tell you the story of Sammy...
Sammy was a young JRT who came into rescue. He had a conflicting story, he was supposed to be highly aggressive, and had bitten, but people who met him said he was sweet. Then he went to a foster home, where they said he was crazy. The person who transported him to me said he was adorable and sweet, he was fine with me on the way home. He was fine when he met hubby the first time.
Next morning he acted like he wanted to eat hubby. So we did TONES of work with him. He was fine with all women and kids just hated men. I had all food come from hubby. Sammy was fine as long as there was food. As soon as the food ran out he would freeze, and look up and thank doG I had him on leash!! He never got better.
To add to this he would shake, not the nervous dog shake, I have had a few JRTs come in that do that. This was like an excess of energy shake. He could do swimmers turns off walls at chest height. I could scale almost anything and what he couldn't scale he would attempt to chew through.
Then one day he decided he wanted to eat kids. NOTHING had changed. Bet my life sort of sure that nothing had happened. And when this dog hated things he lost his brain. He would foam and air bite and spin in his crate if he saw the object of his 'hate'. He would grab the bars and pull till his gums bled. He would fling himself at the door.. even after the person left he would continue for a while. It was scary.
So what would you do with such a dog? The rescue seriously though about seeing if they could adopt him out to a lesbian couple. But I said this dog is a high risk at getting loose, and unlike dogs with fear issues.. he would fixate on the first man or child he saw and attack. Even if someone wanted to take him he was too large a liability for the rescue to adopt out.
Taking him in to be PTS was heartbreaking. He was still happy with me....
That is an entirely different matter that has nothing to do with the present subject.
There are many rescue organizations that would gladly take such a dog and re-train the dog. Again dogtown is one of them.
With your logic I guess you would think it is ok to euth all dogs in shelters to because a lot of them did not have the right training.
There are many rescue organizations that would gladly take such a dog and re-train the dog. Again dogtown is one of them.
With your logic I guess you would think it is ok to euth all dogs in shelters to because a lot of them did not have the right training.
Once again I don't think we are talking the same level of problems. Food guarding is an easy fix, as are many typical behaviour problems. But the extreme problems that are likely genetic are not 'fixable'. And no rescues CAN'T take those dogs. The liability is too great. The JRTRO is the only rescue I know of that takes dogs with bite histories.
Then you dont wrk many ue knowV few wh would deal with a dog of that magnitude and for it to be adopted out. Plus WHY WHY WHY would you torture that dog??? That IMO and most dog peoples opinion cruel to the dog. That dog was so upset if he saw them he could not FUNCTION properly.
What about if is dog was a 130 pound mastiff or 180 pound mastiff? Im sure you wouldnt want to be the one helping rehab him.
What about if is dog was a 130 pound mastiff or 180 pound mastiff? Im sure you wouldnt want to be the one helping rehab him.
hahahahahah
Well I AM one of the people rescues give dogs with problems too. The JRTRO is the main JRT rescue for all of Canada. Its a very active amazing rescue. I had him ~5 months.. how much time do you suggest?
AND IME most rescues know squat about rehabbing dogs. (there is a forum full of rescue types and they LOVE LOVE CM and BP they think its all alpha rolls and pack leader crap)
Well I AM one of the people rescues give dogs with problems too. The JRTRO is the main JRT rescue for all of Canada. Its a very active amazing rescue. I had him ~5 months.. how much time do you suggest?
AND IME most rescues know squat about rehabbing dogs. (there is a forum full of rescue types and they LOVE LOVE CM and BP they think its all alpha rolls and pack leader crap)
Places like Dogtown aren't on every corner, you know... that place is very very unique. And, I doubt that they would take on a dog that actually hurt themselves out of frustration of not being able to act out aggression. Every rescue I have known of, worked with, and adopted from does NOT take in any dog who has shown an inkling of HA, much less a biter, much less a dog who is hurting himself because he wants to attack people.
There are dogs that are afraid of kids and other dogs, who can be worked with and desensitized. A dog who is afraid and runs away is not the kind of dog that I worry about. Then there are dogs who are just too far gone or who are not wired right... and, as much as I love dogs, I feel it's selfish, pompous and insane to keep a dog alive who is at all times a real danger to society and who must be managed 24/7. Accidents happen, and when one little slip of a leash or door could result in a person's death or mutilation, society needs to be protected. Particularly when every dog attack makes it harder and more stressful to own a dog in this country. As Dekka said, we murder millions of dogs every year for no reason other than a lack of homes. Euthing a dog who wants to kill people doesn't seem that inhumane in comparison.
There are dogs that are afraid of kids and other dogs, who can be worked with and desensitized. A dog who is afraid and runs away is not the kind of dog that I worry about. Then there are dogs who are just too far gone or who are not wired right... and, as much as I love dogs, I feel it's selfish, pompous and insane to keep a dog alive who is at all times a real danger to society and who must be managed 24/7. Accidents happen, and when one little slip of a leash or door could result in a person's death or mutilation, society needs to be protected. Particularly when every dog attack makes it harder and more stressful to own a dog in this country. As Dekka said, we murder millions of dogs every year for no reason other than a lack of homes. Euthing a dog who wants to kill people doesn't seem that inhumane in comparison.
Guess you think that maybe Dogtown should euth all the dogs they have as well then. There are some there that are never adopted out but they can lead a full life their with other dogs.
You said you took the JRT in to be eutherd. Did you actually watch the process? Have you ever seen a dog gassed that does not get PTS by the needle? It's very in-humane but I guess you think that is better in the long run.
YouTube - Davie's Law/ Humane Euthanasia in NC Animal Shelters
After you watch this entire video let me know how you feel. That is if you actually do watch it. If not then as far as I am concerned the matter is closed with you having your opinion and I having mine.
You said you took the JRT in to be eutherd. Did you actually watch the process? Have you ever seen a dog gassed that does not get PTS by the needle? It's very in-humane but I guess you think that is better in the long run.
YouTube - Davie's Law/ Humane Euthanasia in NC Animal Shelters
After you watch this entire video let me know how you feel. That is if you actually do watch it. If not then as far as I am concerned the matter is closed with you having your opinion and I having mine.