What breeds?

Your wants are pretty much exactly like mine, except I have pretty strict coat requirements and want a larger dog. I know you already shut the idea down, but Duke matches all those things on your list. He's 5lbs heavier than your max weight though. However it would definitely be more of an individual in the breed than a general breed match. Finding the right breeder would be the key.

Aussie, english shepherd and Koolie definitely seem like the better choices. Gotta be into the retriever thing to fully enjoy a Labrador.

I think that is a fair concern about an ES, I don't know how 'drivey' they can be. But, there is A LOT of variation in the breed and I think you could find a drivey ES.

When it is time to get another puppy (5 ish years), one of the breeders I am currently super interested in is in OK.

Really? I think I may have stumbled onto their website a while back. English shepherds do sound like fabulous dogs.

So many breeds I want to try. XD

That's why chazzers just need to buy a HUGE plot of land. We can 'try out' each others dogs.

I'm here just to say Vizsla ..like a Koolie, but bigger& red

I know I'm late to the thread, but you seem like you'd be a good fit for English Shepherds. Such cool dogs.

I'm not big on sporting dogs, either. I'm not sure why, because all the ones I've met I've just adored. I used to have a rally class with a lady who has flat coats, and her 9 month old puppy was way more focused then Miz Naughty. Miz Naughty tends to get bored with obedience though. He was so handsome!

I knew another lady who had Portuguese Water Dogs...Not a fan of the show haircut, myself, but boy those guys sure have energy to burn!

They seem a bit more independent then some of the other retrievers, but they have a sense of humor about training that I find very endearing.

I think it's pretty normal to read lists like this and think "hey, that sounds like my dog/breed"... and that's what I'm doing.

It sounds a lot like you'd like an Aussie. Just as always, do your homework and find a breeder who's breeding from lines you like.

Size - Cohen is ~37 pounds and is on the small end for a standard Aussie. I love her small sporty size. She's oddly long in body, but has good leg length all things considered. Obviously most Aussies go a bit bigger, with 40-45 pounds being normal for females. Males as always are normally larger.

Energy - Cohen is medium/high energy. She'll go all day if I ask her to, but as she tires she gets more obstinate and less sensitive. My last Aussie was a family pet and he was a total couch potato. As always, it'll depend on the lines and individual dogs. I don't know any Aussies personally who are faster/more energetic than Cohen, but I know they exist. Cohen will sleep throughout a day from time to time, but she really needs some sort of outlet 1-2 times a day. She'll sign/whine, and will jump to attention the moment you shift your weight.

Biddability: Cohen is very biddable, and has been since she was a puppy. I see lots of Aussies (mostly bench bred lines) who are more stubborn and more inclined to search out their own fun.

Drive: Aussies seem to have food drive coming out the wazoo, and most are naturally toy driven. I find the toy drive needs to be fostered for it to really grow to a level where it would be usable in training. I kind of flubbed building Cohen's toy drive, but it's still decent.

People friendliness: Cohen loooooooves her people. If there are ~other people~ around she couldn't care less unless they have food. Ambivalent is the word. A trainer friend of mine used to joke that Cohen hated her. I told her to feed/work with Cohen a bit. After a few weeks/months of working her, my dog now flips out when she sees my friend and turns herself inside out in excitement when she enters the room. Some Aussies I know are more naturally friendly, but most are pretty aloof.

Athletic: Yep. Some bench bred/fattie Aussies can be pretty boring, but I think if they're kept in the right condition the athleticism comes naturally with the drive.

Build: Aussies are a bit heavy in bone, generally. But again the sports/working bred ones I've seen have really nice moderate builds. I think Cohen's is quite nice, with the exception of her long loin. Again, assuming the dog is of the proper lines, fostering speed should be easy. But they're not so fast that you'll find yourself constantly frustrated.

Dog friendliness: I wouldn't call the breed dog friendly. In my mind, best case scenario is for them to be ambivalent/aloof around other dogs. But I've seen exceptions to the rule. Reactivity can definitely be a thing, but can be managed to unnoticeable levels.

Sensitivity: Cohen is very in tune with me, but very resilient. Sometimes maddeningly so. She's a poor candidate for any sort of punishment based training because a harsh word won't faze her, and the few times when I've lost my temper with her she just lets it roll right off her back. I don't think I've ever seen her shut down.

Confidence: Cohen is naturally pretty confident in new areas. Where her confidence fails is around other strange, large dogs. If the other dogs are working, she'll work alongside, but if they react towards her she'll get intimidated and react right back. As I said above, I've never seen her shut down, and I never see her afraid to try something new with me.

Personality: Cohen is pretty serious, but most Aussies are pretty light hearted. I admit, I like the seriousness.

Velco: Cohen is totally velco and will stick with me in just about any situation. I can't remember the last time I was able to walk into another room alone. She's always on my heels. However, she'll work for just about anyone in short spurts - she's pass off-able. It's really helpful in performance situations, and it's really nice to be able to hand her to a friend and sit back and watch her run. You just need to be familiar enough with her know her quirks, and you're good to go.

Toy drive: As I mentioned, this one may not be as naturally strong, but it can be built.

Water: Cohen doesn't like going into the water any deeper than where she can touch. My last dog was the same way. She loves wading. Most Aussies I know are great in water though, and can be killer dock diving dogs.

Get an aussie because of reasons!

I think a lot of gundogs are just as happy being mentally challenged as they are physically! The only thing I would say, is they can be a bit thick headed. They are often used to being very far away from their handler, so can be independent and stubborn. Vislas are (to my knowledge) considered softer than gsp.

I don't think a gsp would have the trainer focus... It's the one thing I do miss in Freddie, he does nothing unless there is something in it for him, you have to get his attention with something, or you're screwed.

Vizla might be a good choice though, and a bitch would be quite small and light.

Honestly though, if you want to do dog sports, there's a reason herders are picked over a lot of gundogs!!

I have a major want for an ES in the future. I've always been interested in BC's, but think their personality is a little too... much for me, I guess. But I've had somewhat limited experience. The ones I got to experience up close and personal with were my agility trainers 3 BC's, all rescues, and all somewhat different but still had that same intensity about them that may be a bit too much for me. I guess I was thinking I would meet them and fall in love in real life, but I didn't really.

And then I love Golden Retrievers but they're often a bit TOO soft for me and TOO friendly. I think ES's sound like a good in between and a good way for me to be introduced to herders. They're one of the breeds I'm seriously contemplating. I kind of just wish they were a bit smaller and lighter bonded (I definitely prefer the body type of BC's).

And as far as large dogs go, for some reason, Jackson really likes herders. He highly dislikes the play of most retrievers, bully's, etc. But herding-type breeds, he meshes very well with.

I would guess that's something else you're looking for? Breeds that would be good with the Paps?

So since Koolies were already recommended I figured I would throw my thoughts in! Answers in purple!

*My thoughts are in bold but the pretty much just match pace for pace Dizzy. I only know 2 GSPs& they are both neurotic rescues who bark constantly at shadows so I can't speak for them LOL

Stop that. Stop making them sounds so perfect. I think I just need to have a Koolie in with my cattle dogs. That would make life perfect.

Laur- I think there are a lot of dogs that fit your needs. Do you like having a good breed community to fall back on? That may be something to help narrow down the choices. From my research, Vizsla communities are normally pretty welcoming, but some do kind of hold grudges to people not planning to hunt their dog. BC's are obviously pretty split between working and conformation and performance sometimes in there. Ect, ect. I don't know. Just throwing that out there. I like having a nice breed specific community to fall back on that's welcoming and without a whole lot of turbulence.

How are they at pulling? Everything about them is everything I love about Squash, plus an off switch? STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM.

Lol. Sass. There is a woman in Western Australia that has 2 Toolallah Koolies that she does competitive sledding with. She also runs huskies but her Koolies do really well.

You know... if that helps.

What Mrose said! She's one of my favorite Koolie people and she got into the breed looking for a dog with the stamina, drive and build for sledding and fell into Koolies.

She's actually a member here, maybe this will make her post. Her and her dogs are awesome and they live for pulling.

ETA: And the bikjoring I've been doing recreationaly with Traveler has been awesome! So much heart and soul in it and he looooves it.

Get a Visla because... V!!!!!!!!!

Soooooo...any chance a Chazzer Koolie litter would be on the ground in 4-6 years? The more I read, and now knowing that they're mostly taller than I thought they were, I'm seriously considering trying a Koolie as a successor dog when Logan retires.

People. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of stopping talking about them!

I have a feeling NONE of those puppies would make it outside of the Chaz circle. :rofl1: