Which is more important?

There's a bit of a paradox I've noticed on this board in regard to puppy training, and I'd like some feedback.

Case 1: Puppies should not be taken to public places (like Petco or the playground) or exposed to other dogs until they've gone through their complete series of puppy shots. These are usually completed at 4-6 months of age.

Case 2: Puppies need early socialization to grow up and become stable, confident adults. But the socialization window is surprisingly slim, and closes at about 4-6 months old.

See the dilemma here? If you wait for the shots, you miss the window. But if you take the puppy everywhere, you risk diseases like parvo. What do you do? Which would be the better gamble in the long run?

I was allways told wait untill the 2nd shot, or 3rd.

I socialized in sanitary places before the puppy shots were done. Puppy class required all pups to be started on their shots, was kept very clean and was secure. I felt comfortable with that.
I also took my pup to petco/petsmart and the park often. I didn't let him rub his nose all over stuff in the store, and wiped his paws down after we got back in the car. I also took him to malls often just to get him around people. Again, I wiped his paws down and didn't allow him to sniff every little thing. I never let him approach a strange dog, and carried him into places like vet's offices (I know it's clean in there, but you never know what's been in the waiting room!)

We never had any problems, and I'm glad I went with the socialization route. As long as you're careful, I don't see why you should have to keep the pup isolated like that.

This was always a dilemma with me when breeding. Luckily my pups were well socialized at home. Fifteen years ago, I had a friend who was trying to decide between 2 females ( Eli's litter ).....stupidly I let her take both pups after their first shots to her guru groomer and the #1 orthopedic guy in the area for check out. Both these pups went into early epileptic seizures and immunization problems. A friend of hers bought the second female and the both went the holistic way. Both lived to be 13 plus. I always thought that they contacted with something on their early outing.

I think socialization in a controlled, safe/sanitary environment at a young age is fine. Just not rough-and-tumble stuff at like a dog park.

For me, it is always socialization, but in the safest way possible. I will take my dogs to events such as shows, or trainign clubs where I KNOW the place is safe.

Socialization starts at the breeders home.
Then the clients need to keep up on it
Here are a few suggestions
Take your pup to a friends house that doesnt have dogs.
Take your pup with you in the car to different places but not letting it walk hold the pup and ask that others clean thier hands first and have some chlorox wipes with ya. I know a pain in the rear but its safer!
Have friends and famliy over to visit and have them take off thier shoes first and wash thier hands..Yeah anal but its safer!

I would personally not take a pup where other dogs frequent until their series of shots are complete at or around 16 weeks. By this I mean dog parks, out walking where lots of dogs frequent such as playgrounds, popular walkways, I never would let my pup down on a vet floor, kennels, pet stores etc.

I would however socialize the pup with car rides, visiting friends with dogs that I know are completely vaccinated. Walking in areas where dogs do not frequent. Socializing around children. Socializing with strange noises and strange movements. Socializing with leashes, collars, handling, etc.

I think there are many ways to socialize a pup without putting him/her at risk, and then when shots completed.........Go for it.

I didn't even get my Charlie until over 12 weeks old, never even been out of his kennel, no shots, no socialization. Puked on the way home and shook like a chi. He was minimally socialized until he had his first two shots, which brought him up to the ripe old age of 18 weeks. What do ya know, he is the most socialized dog I have. Loves everyone, will go anywhere no problems, not dog aggressive (and still intact). Listens well. I have had so many people tell me they want to take him home. So even if the "window" is missed I believe a great dog can become of it with a little patience.

I think safety and health should be considered before trying to socialize in public. Like I said before many things can be done, at less risk to the pup.

I think there are safe ways to socialize your puppy until they've gotten their shots. When I saw someone with what looked like a 6-week-old puppy in a store, I was disgusted.

I went to a seminar last year by John Rogerson, a well-known English behaviorist (PhD).

I had always thought that the early socialization was up to about 16 weeks of age, but he said that more current studies were showing that the vast part of a puppy's personality was formed by 11-12 weeks of age, and that socialization was vital prior to that point.

So there's a balancing act between exposure to disease and socializing in a way that will benefit the pup the most. I can tell you, as someone who has done training classes and behavior consultations for well over a decade, I see SO many dogs that didn't get the early socialization and have long-lasting personality problems. Almost all of the aggression problems I see can be traced back to a lack of socialization, and this is difficult to change once the dog is older.

So for me, I socialize young. Khana was at puppy class at nine weeks old. She'd had her initial vaccination, and was vaccinated on a regular basis. Her breeder had done her part to take her around and get her used to people and traveling prior to sending her to me, so she was well-started. The puppy class allowed her to interact with other vaccinated puppies and a variety of people (adults and kids) in a relatively safe atmosphere.

I took her a limited number of other places until she was more vaccinated. She visited family and went to places such as the UPS store (they loved her there .. *L*). But no places that had a lot of dogs except for the training facility. I wouldn't take a really young, partially vaccinated pup to a dog show or event as there are no requirements at those places to vaccinate their dogs, and often anyone can walk in with a dog off the street.

Some dogs have a temperament that allows them to wait until later to be socialized and they're fine. But many don't - and you don't always know that until it's too late. I will never opt to wait on socialization - and I don't stop socializing after the puppy fuzz wears off. I think dogs need to continue to socialize to a certain extent in order to keep their social skills up (kind of like us humans! *L*).

Oh, by the way - John Rogerson does puppy classes in an entirely different way than most. He signs up six people/puppies at a time and I believe the puppies need to be less than 11 weeks old. The first night they meet at his place. Everyone brings their puppies and a variety of treats (which they share). And every night for a week they meet at a different place (each person's home) for a different surrounding, different people and pets (some people have cats, some have kids, etc). And by the end of that week, the pups have been introduced to so many new experiences that they are well-established as social creatures. I like this idea, but haven't had an opportunity to put it into play here.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Luckily, I live in a very safe area where dog diseases are very rare. I only do one set of parvo and distemper shots, and leave it at that. I socialise as early as possible as well. Belgians are a breed that need to be VERY well socialised. Instead of vaccines I do annual titres.