got stuck with an 8 week old pit with issues, help?

I would be mad and frustrated if someone was making it so I hurt myself...

You definitely need to get him into a home ASAP that can train him properly. You are teaching him that people are bad and using nothing but aversive methods to get him to stop, which are unnatural to dogs and HURT.

When he's biting, don't shove him away, scruff him, alpha roll him or shove your hand down his throat... Grab a treat and ask for a sit instead, reward, do a hand touch and then ENGAGE in a game of tug with a toy with him. You're moving and his toys aren't and he can't be expected to entertain himself at this age. Everything good comes from you like food and play and nothing bad.

Ask to talk to Leslie. She's a foster there. Tell her Stef asked if she can take the pup off your hands for you when she has room for a foster. Her dogs will socialize him for you just fine, and he will go to a great home.

I don't have Leslie's number any more, I think, but I'll get into contact with her tomorrow for you if I can.

*IF* I could get him into my very pit savvy rescue up here (New York), where he'd be fostered by someone experienced, and could arrange transport, would you be willing to send him here?

(It's a big if, because the director (who would probably foster the pup himself) just made a big statement about how many calls he gets a day and how he can't possibly take in every dog, etc....but he likes me, and he likes puppies, and this is a pretty easy fix - pup would probably get adopted fairly quickly, and he'd offer long-term training for any adopter, so I'll ask if you'd be willing to send him here).

DJEtzel, Hes 8-9 weeks old, I am still shaping his sit and other behaviors but he has the attention span of a leaf and we aren't exactly making leaps and bounds with that. Not to mention, when he plays, he gets REALLY into it. Ask a puppy who knows ZERO commands and is over their threshold to sit. What do you get? Someone overusing a command and letting that command lose its value. I am not going to do that. I dont think its wrong to remove his jaw from me at any point. I dont think its wrong to gently push him away when he is latching himself on me. I already said I stopped with putting his gum under his teeth when he would bite me. I have scruffed him, but not aggressively, and I have no alpha rolled him or shoved my hand down his throat to make him stop biting me. I do however, want him to not get frustrated when I put my hand on his jaw, which he has always done. I am still trying to find what method works for him, as its not always cut and dry, this works and this doesnt, which is why I wasnt sure what to do next and I asked. I could list over and over all the things hes improved with and how great he is, but that would make this post so long and obviously you are only concerned with what I am doing wrong. Based on how his behavior in the past couple of days has changed towards me, I would say ignoring has worked, but when I look at how he reacts around other dogs, I would say he is still doing the same thing, only not to me because I don't give him the opportunity. I understand it will take more time and socialization as well as various factors, which is why I want to find him a home that will do that. Sure, I don't exactly know what I am doing, I haven't dealt with this before, but I am trying and I am willing to learn and do new things. I do have two border collies I compete in agility with, so I know a few things about dog training, I am not a complete idiot. I have been working with him, and playing with him. But even moving his toys around he still fixates on me. I don't think telling me I cannot properly train him really is the right way to approach this. Telling me methods to work with him differently? yes, that would have been much better, and much more respectful.


Stef, :hail: , if you could contact her for me that would be awesome! I have not heard back from them yet, but I have been checking my email through-out the day. I was going to give them till tomorrow morning to contact me before I called to bother them. If you cannot, I will call them tomorrow morning and see if they can take him.

If Jasmine's house is not willing to take him, I would be willing to send him to NY. I know he needs a good forever home so wherever his best chance at getting a home is, is where I want to send him. I cannot drive him to NY, but if transport is arranged, I might be able to drive him a few hours somewhere else to meet a transporter.

I'm sure we can arrange transport without much of an issue at all. Chazzers are known to step up in that area, plus the rescue director here used to live/work in MD and another rescue I work for frequently transports to/from Ohio through PA. I could probably arrange to get him to NY in a matter of hours.

Do you know how long it will take before you find out if Jasmine's House can take him?

I also just wanted to say thank you for those of you who have been so helpful in suggesting things as well as helping me try to find a rescue to take him, I really do appreciate it.

I did this, after telling you that what you are doing to the puppy is extremely detrimental to socialization AND training. You obviously don't have experience with normal puppies, and are using methods that will hurt this dog down the line. I have worked in shelters for years, fostered for years, and now I'm teaching group classes; this type of behaviors in place of training is what causes dogs to end up in shelters or with owners that are totally overwhelmed!

Why doesn't he know how to sit? It takes a max of 3 days for a 7 week old puppy to learn this. A touch is almost easier. You don't need to shape the sit, you can lure it just fine and it will be a godsend. Do you know how to train a hand touch? That is easy to shape. Any time he comes NEAR you, ask for a sit (use a treat in your hand if you have to!) and reward him for it with the treat. He'll learn that coming to you and sitting is 10x better than coming and chewing on you. Then grab a toy and ENGAGE him in a game of tug or fetch or chase the toy. Then ask for another sit, a hand touch if he's there, add another game in and take him out to potty. Then crate for a little while so that he can nap. This is the stuff puppies do when they aren't being stimulated and are bored. Taking the option away will prevent it from happening ten fold.

He's doing all of this stuff because he isn't trained, doesn't have any mental stimulation going on, and isn't being engaged. He's treating you just like he would a litter mate, at this point. It is completely UNNECCESSARY to use any of the methods you are or have, (besides ignoring him) when you can just train him and keep treats on you and redirect and reward for good things, and ignore for bad. Just ignoring and not adding any reward will not accomplish this very fast and will likely crush his confidence somewhat.

One thing I did with Jack that really helped with the play biting was making a loud yelping sound when ever he bit us. It didn't take long for him to get the message.

IHMO, the issue with pushing him away is not that it's all that aversive, but that it can actually encourage the behavior if the puppy interprets it as roughhousing. One of the ways we actually get Sally revved up to play is by pushing her when she is playful. She was also a jumper and we used the "putting your knee up" method (before we knew better) and this only encouraged her as she saw it as play.

You told me something I was already doing. Engaging in play? What do you think I have been doing. Tugging with him brings out the VERY behavior I am trying to get rid of. What you are telling me is that unless I am training him to do a different behavior I shouldnt do anything to stop the current behavior. So I should give in, lure him into a sit, teach him the command, and then engage in a lot of play and tugging. And then when he latches onto me in play and I cant get him off, to tell him to sit and then engage in more tugging? or tell him to do a hand-touch and reward? Because that is what you basically told me to do.

I mentioned he is over threshold. I may not have tons of experience with shelters, but I do have experience with puppies and dogs, and I do have a lot of experience with issues involving threshold. When a dog is so ZONED in onto something, giving them a command or saying their name could make them lose value for their name or the command. Obviously I dont want to do this, I want to work on disengaging him from the behavior first, which is what I have been trying to do. Have you read control unleashed? It has a lot of information about dogs over threshold and it really is a great read.

Tugging? I love tugging, I tug with my dogs all the time. Tugging with this puppy brings out the behavior I have been trying to work with him on. He snarls and growls when I have the toy and he doesn't. He will bite/snap at me if I go near him after this. I am shaping him, because I want him to come to it on his own.

I am shaping his sit, and I am shaping several other behaviors as well. Can he sit on his own? yes. Could I add a command right now? yes. I wont though, because its not ready. I have also been shaping him to stop biting me. When he releases, I click and treat. I know how easy nose-touches are. You cannot tell me he isn't being engaged or mentally stimulated. I just told you I have been working with him. What I am not doing, is working with him the way YOU would work with him. I asked for suggestions that would help get rid of the behavior. I am telling you what you specifically suggested wont work (I have already been engaging him in play and mental stimulation though, as you suggested. IMO thats a given with any puppy). I am not saying what I was doing was working, only that I know when he is over his threshold asking for a sit wont happen. Sure I can bring out a toy, but what does that correct? That signals that its just more fun to chew on a toy, not that its not okay to chew on me. I get the concept you are trying to push at me, I know about it. I may not have worked extensively with shelters and fostered as many dogs as you but that doesnt mean I am an idiot. I wouldnt listen to your advice purely from the way you suggested it to me by first telling me I couldnt properly train a dog.

What is the difference between the way this puppy acts when I:

1. Roll his gums under his teeth when he is biting me
2. Gently push him away when he has latched onto my leg or another body part and is painfully chewing away
3. Tugging, playing games that appeal to his prey drive
4. removing his jaw from my flesh, clothes, anything at all

answer: nothing. He reacts the same way. He snarls, growls, bites, sometimes barks and always gets frustrated and angry, he has broken the skin a few times by doing this. I just got finished actually having a session with him, and when he started getting nasty because I removed his jaw from my pants, I engaged in a game of tug. It made it worse and he left a bunch of marks on my arm from trying to snap/bite me.

I am not trying to come off as high and mighty, I am not a dog expert. I have owned 3 wonderful dogs who I would not trade the world for. I trained them with clicker training, and instead of ignoring every bad behavior, I addressed them. I have worked through a lot with them. I don't know everything there is to know about training a dog, but I am open minded for the most part and willing to try something that sounds reasonable. If I already know he wont respond, why would I sit there and devalue a command?


Its fruitless to argue about this. If you don't see me playing with him and shaping him as mental stimulation and engaging him than I don't know if I would trust your training opinion. I asked for help and I felt very discouraged by you in particular, you didnt even start off with suggestions, you started off telling me I was doing a horrible job. Oh yeah totally lemme just do exactly what you suggested now.

I have tried the yelping, it only works sometimes. I can see what you mean with the pushing away, because I do that as well to amp up my dogs. I have started to pick him up and set him else-where, so I will just start doing that instead,

The thing is, he is still very young! None of this is going to work super fast. He is still a puppy, it takes many repetitions for them to figure out oh, I do this playtime ends. It takes many repetitions for them to learn impulse control. I dont know how this puppy is acting and I can tell you are frustrated but from what you have written it sounds like normal behavior with too high of expectations.

Have you ever had a terrier pup before? maybe the tenacity is not what you are used to?

The tug, honestly its not about stopping certain normal behaviors but giving them the appropriate outlet. Grabbing humans is not ok, grabbing the tug is, etc

Correcting a dog for doing something that he doesn't know any better for us aversive and what causes aggression towards people, or fear. You're not listening to the basis behind what I am saying at all. Teaching and playing teaches him what IS OK so that he's less likely to do the behaviors he is being ignored for. This is operant conditioning, which you say you use. Addressing the behavior is not aversively correcting him, it's teaching him the appropriate behavior instead.

Eta; I own and have read control unleashed numerous times and have worked with dogs who attacked people, other dogs, etc while they were over threshold. I am currently giving private lessons to a couple with a dog that goes over threshold every time she sees another dog and will not take treats or listen to commands. Very familiar. Terrier puppies aren't over threshold, they're just terrier puppies. I've never met a dog that young that had a threshold to be over, honestly! They're your and being molded. A tug is a great way to teach impulse control, which it sounds like he's lacking a LOT of, because he's a baby.

Stand up, tug with him. Tell him to out, physically (nicely) take it from his mouth if necessary. Hold it where he cannot get it. When he stops (or if he doesn't) barking, growling, etc, give it back and tug again!

Have you tried time outs at all?

With Siri (yay terrier puppies ) yelping and the like honestly don't do a whole heck of a lot. Not sure if that is specifically a terrier thing, but if anything it can rile her up more!

What does seem to work are time out breaks. Not only does it save your hands, but it also gives the puppy a chance to calm down before trying again.

Siri can get angry when she is frustrated, and I would not be surprised if that is what is happening here as well. For example if she is getting a little too rough during a play date and I pick her up, she gets really frustrated and has even gnashed her teeth at me a time or two. But I am persistent with her being calm before she is allowed to play again, and she is getting better. Slowly but surely.

As far as him getting angry and trying to bite when you have the tug he wants, Siri would take cheap shots at my arms and other body parts in that situation as well earlier on, when she was frustrated. With her we could just stand up and eventually she would offer something (a down, or even just backing away) so that we could reward her with access to the tug again. If he will bite your pants/body parts in that situation, what about having a chair there that you can stand on. Might seem crazy, but might also push him into offering something else, even just a shift of bodyweight into his back legs, that you can reward and eventually turn into a better game.

Turning totally away when you ignore him might be helpful too. I've noticed that both of my dogs use turning away as way of communicating that a behavior is unacceptable. Whatever you do will likely take a bit of time though, as he has a baby brain!

I am sorry if I was being rude, this entire situation really has been stressing me out. I am not trying to get angry with anyone or act like I know exactly what I am doing.

I found hes much less crazy when he tugs with my dogs, and so I have been letting him do that since they will just drag him around for awhile and tire him out. I have met terrier puppies and trained one for the first year of its life for my friend, but I guess this is maybe a side I am not used to.

I came here for help so I promise I have taken everything everyone has said in. Thank you for the time you have put into your advice and thoughts.

Edited to add:

I have been trying to tire him out, I have noticed small sessions of letting him run around before I train him makes him a little less crazy when I do work with him and it helps him sleep better. Everyone is suggesting tugging and I am willing to give it a shot. He really loves to tug. He hasnt yet really caught onto the look at what I have and if I roll it you can chase it. He loves when I move the tug around so he can chase it though, and he loves walks.

Have you tried one of those flat toys with no stuffing for tug? Or a braided fleece, or even a long sock with a knot in the middle? He might be more interested in those than a rope toy, they seem more "alive" when you're not actively wiggling it, so it may keep his interest more.

Yeah it sounds a lot how Izze was as a puppy, what worked with her was as soon as she bit ME when we were playing, I would say "NO!" Stand up & leave the room for about 30 seconds RINSE REPEAT!

Remember you must repeat whatever method you choose countless times before he seems like its working.
then ... When they hit about 4-6 mos it will seem like any training went out the window lol.

Then when they hit about 1 1/2- 2 yrs of age it's like they suddenly remember everything you taught them (you know, the stuff you thought wasn't sinking in? ).

He is cute, I think I could forgive his behavior just remember bully breed does NOT = aggressive human eating monster. It is no different then a lab, golden, or chi puppy doing the same thing

Tugging on a toy is not eating humans for lunch. No worries.

With my guys I do tug, but the second it's mouth on me, I stop the game. They learn quickly that it's more fun to tug on the toy and follow the rules than to end the game by mouthing me. My golden was very mouthy but now only does it when she's excited.

Another thing that helps is to IGNORE the bad behavior like mouthing - you may have to get up and walk out of the room and stop the game - and focus on 'look, the tug is so much nicer to play with, I LIKE THAT'.

And remember, he's a baby, put him on a routine that includes nap time and such so he's not acting out because he's overtired. The boxer at my work was like that when she was younger and when she started to get really silly, she went into her crate and often crashed for a few hours of sleep and came out much calmer.

You can also get some bones (raw marrow bones, scrape out the marrow), kongs and other good hard to destroy chewies and have those for some calm time.

Yeah helping never worked for us either, I just got up & turned my back & ended the game until I got an "apology" (if he comes around to the front of you & play boss &/or barks that is a doggy apology) once is apologizes, then resume play ... Same with biting when you are interacting with him, just give a form deep "no!" & strand up & turn your back, if he "throws a tantrum" (grabs your pants or otherwise puts his mouth on you) remove his mouth from you & leave the room imediately for no more them 30 sec.

I know this sounds cumbersome ... But it will pay off trust me.

I wish you were close to Texas, I would take him myself, I know a pit bull lady that might be able to find a home for him while I fostered him.

LOL if someone can get him to Texas (can't go OOS ... Just can't make the trip) I would be willing to do that ... Seriously.