Are CM's methods abusive - link
- Thread starter stardogs
- Start date
You would THINK this would be the case... but so many are brainwashed to believe that only shut down dogs are "calm submissive", and anything else is out of control. My friends adopted this Iggy x Aussie mix who was perfectly sweet and friendly besides guarding stuff when they tried to rip it away from him. Using CM's techniques, a year later, he spends 99% of his time either in his crate or in his bed, sulks around completely tense and depressed, doesn't approach anyone, and has bitten everyone he knows (including ME, for a treat in my pocket!). Those same people call my dogs, who are completely happy, stable, and compete in obedience, "spoiled". I can't believe how blind they are to reality. 
He doesn't tap his foot. He kicks the dog... and that's why the dog redirects on him. The SECOND he kicks him the dog redirects! And keeps going after him and the leash because he's being choked. IMo, that dog could have bitten him dozens of times, but he didn't. He was trying to stop the choking, by biting at the leash.
What would I do? A) I would NOT kick a dog, particulary a dog who is escalating like that. B) I would NOT be walking 3 feet from another dog the moment I start working with a reactive/aggressive dog like that. Maybe 300 feet. My fave part is the people at the end, talking about how their dogs problem is not aggression, it's dominance! That is some bullshit right there.
I was not referring to this video, as frightening as it is. I was referring to JonBee. Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers He's mentioned in this link... but I couldn't find the video. In which, Cesar chokes out a dog who is muzzled. There is no excuse for that. He's not protecting himself, he's brutalizing a fearful, primitive, feral dog! Btw that is an awesome article written by my trainer/behaviorist/mentor.
What would I do? A) I would NOT kick a dog, particulary a dog who is escalating like that. B) I would NOT be walking 3 feet from another dog the moment I start working with a reactive/aggressive dog like that. Maybe 300 feet. My fave part is the people at the end, talking about how their dogs problem is not aggression, it's dominance! That is some bullshit right there.
I was not referring to this video, as frightening as it is. I was referring to JonBee. Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers He's mentioned in this link... but I couldn't find the video. In which, Cesar chokes out a dog who is muzzled. There is no excuse for that. He's not protecting himself, he's brutalizing a fearful, primitive, feral dog! Btw that is an awesome article written by my trainer/behaviorist/mentor.
Here you go
YouTube - Jonbee 1
YouTube - Jonbee 1
You still failed to point out how his explanation after it's all said and done is a-okay
I'm not debating CM, some like him, some don't. I'm pretty comfortable with the way I train.
I think using a video where something was clearly done in the name of safety and using to say he chokes dogs to the point of losing consciousness to train dogs was misleading.
and i get you don't like him, so you probably would call a foot tap a "kick" cause you like to be dramatic. but really, if that's how you "kick" you probably weren't very good at soccer, or kickball, or karate, might make a nice footsie partner though.
Lmao... there's no arguing with you... crazyyy!
I was taking Rallyo classes, with my boss, and she would kick her Pit Bull like that when he got overstimulated. And, without fail, it would make him worse, it would make him ignore her, it kept happening, obviously wasn't working. And she kept kicking him. The sole reason that I quit those classes. Also because the trainer (my boss's friend) wanted me to collar correct Fozzie to make him go faster! F DAT.
I was taking Rallyo classes, with my boss, and she would kick her Pit Bull like that when he got overstimulated. And, without fail, it would make him worse, it would make him ignore her, it kept happening, obviously wasn't working. And she kept kicking him. The sole reason that I quit those classes. Also because the trainer (my boss's friend) wanted me to collar correct Fozzie to make him go faster! F DAT.
Muahahahahah!! Hilarious!!
On another video note...
I think Ed Frawley is a pompous a$$, but Michael Ellis IMO "gets" the whole dominance thing and he explains it really well in this clip. What he says at 4:00 minutes sooooo resonates with me and our experience with our rescue dane.
YouTube - Michael Ellis on Dominance in Dogs
Yes, there are "dominant" dogs, but they are truly rare, and these are NOT the dogs you see C.Millan working with and claiming that they are being dominant. A TRUE alpha isn't going to put up with CMillan's BS and will call him on it and he will lose. Badly.
On another video note...
I think Ed Frawley is a pompous a$$, but Michael Ellis IMO "gets" the whole dominance thing and he explains it really well in this clip. What he says at 4:00 minutes sooooo resonates with me and our experience with our rescue dane.
YouTube - Michael Ellis on Dominance in Dogs
Yes, there are "dominant" dogs, but they are truly rare, and these are NOT the dogs you see C.Millan working with and claiming that they are being dominant. A TRUE alpha isn't going to put up with CMillan's BS and will call him on it and he will lose. Badly.
I totally agree, especially with the last part.
I'm not a fan of his methods, have never used them or have felt the need to use them, but minus the alpha rolling and strangling occasionally of the things he says hold water.
Brad Pattison is by far my least favorite of the TV trainers. He'll put all his weight into yanking on a dogs collar and will send it off its feet. There's a video on youtube of him popping a dog really hard in the nose. On top of this he's a complete and total prick - CM is at least approachable and friendly (I guess that's why he's done so well - kind of like the Pat Parelli of the dog world, all the women who have no idea what they're doing with their dog/horse love him), BP frequently screams at his clients and is just generally an asshole. That said, Cesar is probably far more 'dangerous' than he is as he has a much bigger following of people who will try and imitate him.
I'm not a fan of his methods, have never used them or have felt the need to use them, but minus the alpha rolling and strangling occasionally of the things he says hold water.
Brad Pattison is by far my least favorite of the TV trainers. He'll put all his weight into yanking on a dogs collar and will send it off its feet. There's a video on youtube of him popping a dog really hard in the nose. On top of this he's a complete and total prick - CM is at least approachable and friendly (I guess that's why he's done so well - kind of like the Pat Parelli of the dog world, all the women who have no idea what they're doing with their dog/horse love him), BP frequently screams at his clients and is just generally an asshole. That said, Cesar is probably far more 'dangerous' than he is as he has a much bigger following of people who will try and imitate him.
I have said it before and I maintain my position, the little good that CM does, doesn't out weigh the harm. Bottomline is most people do not have enough experience and education to be able to separate the good methods from the ones that make problems worse.
I get sick and tired of fixing problems that have been created by people watching that show and others. Little problems that could have been easily fixed that are now huge esculated problems from dogs that are defensive and/or scared and dogs that are NOT trained.
Recently had a very nice older puppy in a class, he was progressing and doing very well. Towards the end of the course, he took a major regression far beyond a normal regression that one sees in training. Presenting problems that had never been there, he just didn't regress backwards a few steps, he crashed. Owner admitted that they had ordered the CM dvd's and they had finally arrived a couple of weeks before that. This pup went from being a happy and looking forward to training pup to a cowering, pulling away from his owner on leash and not willing to do any of the behaviours that he had already learned. A dog that was motivated by both play and food rewards, now he didn't want any part of anything, unwilling to offer a single behaviour that had been trained. Congrats, those methods had undone everything we were getting, oh and he had also bit a child and an adult recently which had never been a problem before that........yeah they rolled him and he bit when they reached from him afterwards. Go figure.
The owner was shocked at how it had back fired on them and now we are working to undo it. But it is truely sad to see the look of mistrust in his eyes now, although fading and coming back to an eager happy baby dog. Time, patience and solid methods will undo it. So yeah, I am not a fan because I see the fall out all the time.
I get sick and tired of fixing problems that have been created by people watching that show and others. Little problems that could have been easily fixed that are now huge esculated problems from dogs that are defensive and/or scared and dogs that are NOT trained.
Recently had a very nice older puppy in a class, he was progressing and doing very well. Towards the end of the course, he took a major regression far beyond a normal regression that one sees in training. Presenting problems that had never been there, he just didn't regress backwards a few steps, he crashed. Owner admitted that they had ordered the CM dvd's and they had finally arrived a couple of weeks before that. This pup went from being a happy and looking forward to training pup to a cowering, pulling away from his owner on leash and not willing to do any of the behaviours that he had already learned. A dog that was motivated by both play and food rewards, now he didn't want any part of anything, unwilling to offer a single behaviour that had been trained. Congrats, those methods had undone everything we were getting, oh and he had also bit a child and an adult recently which had never been a problem before that........yeah they rolled him and he bit when they reached from him afterwards. Go figure.
The owner was shocked at how it had back fired on them and now we are working to undo it. But it is truely sad to see the look of mistrust in his eyes now, although fading and coming back to an eager happy baby dog. Time, patience and solid methods will undo it. So yeah, I am not a fan because I see the fall out all the time.
When you strip away all the BS about dominance, pack theory and TSSSSTTTT, CM's foundations for dogs do hold water - dogs need exercise and boundaries in their lives in order to be good pets.
I don't know if I would classify him as abusive. If I give one of my dogs a leash pop, they're going to give me a weird look and carry on. If I poke them in the neck and TSSST, I'd probably get the same response. I've seen much harsher things done to dogs and I really can't call that kind of "training" abuse. It's not good, it's far less effective than other methods, but on a scale of 1 to OMGWTF, what he does is rather mild.
I wholeheartedly agree with Fran that the danger is not CM himself, but the sheep who follow him and imitate his every move with their own dog. These people do far more harm to dogs than Mr. Millan.
I don't know if I would classify him as abusive. If I give one of my dogs a leash pop, they're going to give me a weird look and carry on. If I poke them in the neck and TSSST, I'd probably get the same response. I've seen much harsher things done to dogs and I really can't call that kind of "training" abuse. It's not good, it's far less effective than other methods, but on a scale of 1 to OMGWTF, what he does is rather mild.
I wholeheartedly agree with Fran that the danger is not CM himself, but the sheep who follow him and imitate his every move with their own dog. These people do far more harm to dogs than Mr. Millan.
Also, in regards to Shadow, I think Cesar just repeatedly set him up to fail.
However, if a dog does that to me, you bet I'll hang him up until he passes out before I'll let him bite me. There was no stopping at that point once Cesar had riled that dog up into a rage, he had to hang him up and wait it out or else he was going to get his ass kicked. That wasn't training, that was self defense. I think it's sick that he marketed it as training.
However, if a dog does that to me, you bet I'll hang him up until he passes out before I'll let him bite me. There was no stopping at that point once Cesar had riled that dog up into a rage, he had to hang him up and wait it out or else he was going to get his ass kicked. That wasn't training, that was self defense. I think it's sick that he marketed it as training.
Nobody would claim that exercise and boundries are not required and that really should be a no brainer (although I know it isn't, sadly). How is it a people problem? When they can't/don't or are terribly unsuccessful at training and then use his most extreme methods to fix it?
Good grief, I talk to people all the time that are ambushing their dogs and pups. They are not training the dogs on any level but the second the dog does something they don't like, its wham, slam it to the ground and hold it there.
Good grief, I talk to people all the time that are ambushing their dogs and pups. They are not training the dogs on any level but the second the dog does something they don't like, its wham, slam it to the ground and hold it there.
But that's the thing. Dogs are by nature NON confrontational, and unless the dog is rabid, 99.9% dogs don't come out and attack like that unless provoked to and not given an escape route.
I have a 140 pound ex-feral great dane. He's probably eye to eye with CMillan standing on all four feet. Lunar is one of those true "dominant" dogs Michael Ellis talks about in that video I posted. He's as sweet and tractable as you could want, until you try and pick a fight with him. At that point he will give you every opportunity to knock it off, and then he'll tell you enough is enough. And it won't be pretty I promise.
What CMillan is doing in that video is to me like jabbing someone in the shoulder until they come back at you, then you pull out a gun and shoot them claiming you "had to" because your life is in danger. That's not self-defense, that's just stupid.
I have a 140 pound ex-feral great dane. He's probably eye to eye with CMillan standing on all four feet. Lunar is one of those true "dominant" dogs Michael Ellis talks about in that video I posted. He's as sweet and tractable as you could want, until you try and pick a fight with him. At that point he will give you every opportunity to knock it off, and then he'll tell you enough is enough. And it won't be pretty I promise.
What CMillan is doing in that video is to me like jabbing someone in the shoulder until they come back at you, then you pull out a gun and shoot them claiming you "had to" because your life is in danger. That's not self-defense, that's just stupid.
