Breeding for sports
- Thread starter Laurelin
- Start date
but not everybody likes the "show dog look" . In my breed I think they look dopey, their faces look more mastiff like than shepherd like, out of shape, flat, move very sloppily, look weak in muscle and joints, do not look athletic, long bodied etc.
I much prefer a more compact, well muscled, varied coat with a look of tightness and sharpness to all their features rather than a softening of everything.
I much prefer a more compact, well muscled, varied coat with a look of tightness and sharpness to all their features rather than a softening of everything.
When I had Tess at World Team Tryouts, there was just one other conformation champion there, but it was a Sheltie (well, the vast majority of the dogs there were BCs or Shelties, of course). And I was impressed, because it is hard to finish a breed championship on a Sheltie! I do know a ton of fabulous agility Shelties from show lines, they just usually don't get the CH title because it's too hard and a waste of agility time/money.
This is what I was trying to say, not that it isnt possible, I wish that it was common in more breeds then it is now is what I was trying to say. I know in the two breeds I am looking at one it is pretty common for breeders to have titles on both ends of their names. But the other breed it is very uncommon for dogs to have much more then a CGN and a CH, i want more.
Then it comes to whether they don't work the dogs because the dogs are incapable, or because they just don't want to. Could be either.
Until pretty recently, almost nobody did anything with Staffords but the breed ring. At our National Specialty a few weeks ago, we had 17 entries in obedience, 18 in rally, and 13 dogs in agility. (most of them, admittedly, were the same dogs). That's compared to 84 conformation entries, so a really nice percentage. Our obedience/rally judge had a lot of complimentary things to say about the dogs' work, too.
Until pretty recently, almost nobody did anything with Staffords but the breed ring. At our National Specialty a few weeks ago, we had 17 entries in obedience, 18 in rally, and 13 dogs in agility. (most of them, admittedly, were the same dogs). That's compared to 84 conformation entries, so a really nice percentage. Our obedience/rally judge had a lot of complimentary things to say about the dogs' work, too.
This really, really varies from breed to breed. IME wanting the AKC show GSD look sort of excludes you from having a dog who is going to excel in agility. Even if they have the drive for it (and some do), they are not built in a way that lends itself to the sport at all. In Belgians though, it's not all that hard to find dogs who are not just show quality dogs who can do performance but dogs who can actually excel in both the show and performance ring. A perfect example is that the BOB dog at the BSCA National this year is likely going to have her MACH by the end of the year. That is actually what really drew me to Belgians over other breeds I like. My ideal dog is one who is CH and easily does lots of other stuff 
That doesn't have have to be everyone's ideal of course. And the breeds I'm drawn to tend to be ones where versatility is considered important even in show dogs.
Well to be fair...competing at that level in agility tends to be pretty all consuming. I wonder how many of those dogs were titled in obedience? Or breed-specific sports? Or were also actual working dogs? It can take a good bit of time and money to finish a dog in AKC, even in lower entry breeds. In high entry breeds, you're looking at a significant commitment both in time and money to get a CH. So yeah...pretty impressive one of the Shelties there is a CH!
That doesn't have have to be everyone's ideal of course. And the breeds I'm drawn to tend to be ones where versatility is considered important even in show dogs. Well to be fair...competing at that level in agility tends to be pretty all consuming. I wonder how many of those dogs were titled in obedience? Or breed-specific sports? Or were also actual working dogs? It can take a good bit of time and money to finish a dog in AKC, even in lower entry breeds. In high entry breeds, you're looking at a significant commitment both in time and money to get a CH. So yeah...pretty impressive one of the Shelties there is a CH!
A horse bred to be halter (conformation for the non horse folks) horse for the large muscles and heavily line bred to one Tb sire produced such a horrible inherited problem and something that they claim Impressive himself never showed signs of.
However isn't it interesting that in the history of Thoroughbreds to recent times that they don't have HYPP??? In my opinion, HYPP can't be blamed on an outcross to a different breed when that breed doesn't have it
Here is a quote from an article at UC Davis:
This genetic defect has been identified in descendents of the American Quarter Horse sire, Impressive. The original genetic defect causing HYPP was a natural mutation that occurred as part of the evolutionary process. The majority of such mutations, which are constantly occurring, are not compatible with survival. However, the genetic mutation causing HYPP produced a functional, yet altered, sodium ion channel. This gene mutation is not a product of inbreeding. The gene mutation causing HYPP inadvertently became widespread when breeders sought to produce horses with heavy musculature. To date, confirmed cases of HYPP have been restricted to descendants of this horse.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
However isn't it interesting that in the history of Thoroughbreds to recent times that they don't have HYPP??? In my opinion, HYPP can't be blamed on an outcross to a different breed when that breed doesn't have it
Here is a quote from an article at UC Davis:
This genetic defect has been identified in descendents of the American Quarter Horse sire, Impressive. The original genetic defect causing HYPP was a natural mutation that occurred as part of the evolutionary process. The majority of such mutations, which are constantly occurring, are not compatible with survival. However, the genetic mutation causing HYPP produced a functional, yet altered, sodium ion channel. This gene mutation is not a product of inbreeding. The gene mutation causing HYPP inadvertently became widespread when breeders sought to produce horses with heavy musculature. To date, confirmed cases of HYPP have been restricted to descendants of this horse.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
that is incorrect, the world population is only the size it is cos of hybrid vigour in plant and animal food production.
a multi-billion dollar annual food industry says yr wrong.
no diresepct to the thousands of people in certain countries that die every day of mal-nutrition, that is not for the lack of food that is produced annually, a lot of it just get destroyed. people starve for political reasons not scientific reasons.
i am in a small splinter org off a large org that breeds purbred angus, none of our sale bulls will ever breed to an angus cow and we have highest quality stock - farmers know hybrid vigour puts money in their pockets so our beautiful purbred bulls contribute semen for a perpetual F01 commercial herd for slaughter, are all these farmers believing in a myth???
Yeah, I didn't expect a lot of breed champions, especially since most of the dogs were BCs (where the show type has veered so far away from what is functional), or Shelties (which are crazy hard to finish). I did think that some of the few "other" breeds might have had that title, but nope, just Tess and the one Sheltie. Which I knew only because they had a list in the program thingy with numbers of AKC championships earned by the entered dogs. Which were mostly various levels of MACH, but there was at least one OTCH, I think and they listed 2 CHs. (the people with the Sheltie greeted me at some point with "So you're the other CH?", so I knew theirs was the 2nd)
I thought it was good proof that a show line Sheltie is entirely capable of being really competitive in agility.
I thought it was good proof that a show line Sheltie is entirely capable of being really competitive in agility.
I would hardly call HYPP 'arguably the worst hereditary illness to hit the breed'. I think that 'honor' falls to HERDA.
As for breeding for sports. Meh. as long as someone is breeding mentally and physically sound animals; doing the necessary health checks for the breed/cross breeds; have some sort of 'will take the pup back for any reason, at anytime' promise, it's not a problem to me.
A horse bred to be halter (conformation for the non horse folks) horse for the large muscles and heavily line bred to one Tb sire produced such a horrible inherited problem and something that they claim Impressive himself never showed signs of.
However isn't it interesting that in the history of Thoroughbreds to recent times that they don't have HYPP??? In my opinion, HYPP can't be blamed on an outcross to a different breed when that breed doesn't have it
Here is a quote from an article at UC Davis:
This genetic defect has been identified in descendents of the American Quarter Horse sire, Impressive. The original genetic defect causing HYPP was a natural mutation that occurred as part of the evolutionary process. The majority of such mutations, which are constantly occurring, are not compatible with survival. However, the genetic mutation causing HYPP produced a functional, yet altered, sodium ion channel. This gene mutation is not a product of inbreeding. The gene mutation causing HYPP inadvertently became widespread when breeders sought to produce horses with heavy musculature. To date, confirmed cases of HYPP have been restricted to descendants of this horse.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
However isn't it interesting that in the history of Thoroughbreds to recent times that they don't have HYPP??? In my opinion, HYPP can't be blamed on an outcross to a different breed when that breed doesn't have it
Here is a quote from an article at UC Davis:
This genetic defect has been identified in descendents of the American Quarter Horse sire, Impressive. The original genetic defect causing HYPP was a natural mutation that occurred as part of the evolutionary process. The majority of such mutations, which are constantly occurring, are not compatible with survival. However, the genetic mutation causing HYPP produced a functional, yet altered, sodium ion channel. This gene mutation is not a product of inbreeding. The gene mutation causing HYPP inadvertently became widespread when breeders sought to produce horses with heavy musculature. To date, confirmed cases of HYPP have been restricted to descendants of this horse.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
I think how "inadvertent" the speading of the disease was is arguable. Many breeders didn't test horses that they knew could be carriers because they simply didn't want to know and lose the ability to breed their stallions. I remember there being huge uproar among breeders after an article about HYPP was published in the Quarter Horse Journal--the complaint was that the article was published right before the breeding season. The AQHA has cracked down on it, requiring foals with Impressive blood to be tested, but years too late IMHO. My cousin had a P/P gelding-it's a nasty disease.
I used to scoff at Borderjacks and Borderstaffys, but working in the dog industry has made me much less snobby about breeders. If your dogs are of sound temperament and health, and you're taking ALL of the steps to being a reputable breeder, you're doing much better than the majority of purebred breeders, no matter what mixes you're breeding! If there's tons of great, dog sport homes lined up for all of your puppies? That's awesome. Well bred sport mixes aren't the random/unknown mixed dogs that end up in shelters.
I even tolerate a well bred Doodle now! I've met many more poorly bred, crazy Doodles, but a few very nicely bred ones with amazing owners changed my mind.
Well bred sport mixes aren't the random/unknown mixed dogs that end up in shelters.I even tolerate a well bred Doodle now! I've met many more poorly bred, crazy Doodles, but a few very nicely bred ones with amazing owners changed my mind.
