My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

I do not want my dogs to live a wild life. Just because they could does not mean they should. THe adverage life of a wild bird is one year. Can you imagine what a dog's would be? OF course they can but they do not need to. THere was a man that went out into the wilds of Alaska and proved until he ate the wrong thing..something that looked like something else, that it is possible too. Doesn't mean that we should or that if we don't we are lesser than those that would? OF course not. Mary has lived in the lap of lux all her life and i do not think she would be any greater a dog if she did not. I saw dogs that could hunt like no one's business but if they broke a leg IT GOT FIXED. THeir life was not a waste. OF course our dogs would figure out how to feed themselves and how to find water. Then sooner or later something would happen, a cut that would become abcessed or worse and that would be that. I Find the whole topic pointless. PRoviding health care and proper housing does not make the dog weaker. IT does however make the owner RESPONSIBLE and HUMANE.

Right, but birds are NOT flying around with a huge variety of genetic disorders.

The idea of where alot of these breeds are going healthwise says a lot.

Infact the same thing is going on with people. As humans we feel the need to *save* everything. Thats fine (look at my dogs lol) but those animals NEED to be removed from the gene pool

In reptiles som'times babies are born with mild birth defects...particularly bearded dragons... breeders tend to cull these otherwise healthy animals... In the past I used to take candidates that only had cosmetic problems and place them in PET homes..

Heres the thing tho. Dispite everything many of these animals ended up breeding anyway. People just could not help themselves. Or they would get eggs that they swore they would destroy, but "didn't have the heart too"

I now no longer place these animals in pet homes, because I don't feel I can trust the adopters anymore. You can't spay a dragon.

People (in general ) feel that if it has a heartbeat it should reproduce. I've sold animals for ten years and I can tell you one of the first thing out of 99% of peoples mouths are...how old to breed? Can I breed? I want a boy and girl...etc etc...

Its som'thing flawed with us as humans as so many of us display the quality. IMO

I just reread this whole thread very carefully. We didn't take our dogs to the vet to whelp..but we had vet checks before they were bred and at least once during the pregnancy. OUR vet came out so there was no worry of contamination. If the female has a pup that does not pass or develops an infection afterwards is the dog taken to the vet? OR is that considered a natural selection thing? ARE you with the dog when she gives birth? I ask because i want to be understand. We did our own vacs. WE also used straw not hay. I can't imagine anyone keeping a dog on hay because it holds the water and molds. But not of course in the whelping box. Just in general for the outside dogs. So many pups would be stepped on..or crushed which has nothing to do with the health of the pup but the inexperience of the mother. Especially in a area that does not have a guard rail with a space underneath. I have been with dogs that had 14 pups...so exhausted that passing the last ones would have taken too long and they last pups would have died. A little human help at that time was critical to save the whole litter. I have read that you do use a vet for an emergency but you don't for snake bites? So do you for a mother that has problems passing a pup? IT is all very confusing. YOu do or do not have rabie shots? Finally if vet care and living in the home is so bad for a dog why do mine live such long healthy lives? EVen the inside outside cat made it to 19. Mary has had a vet check once a year for going on 17 years now. I do not see how you think that sleeping in my bed made her weaker. Having her as a part of the family however did make it easier to train her and she felt a strong responsibility towards the children. SHe runs even now. HEr eyes are clear and bright. IT certainly didn't weaken her one bit. I have seen so many dogs waste their lives being kept in a kennel out back because it was believed that being a house dog would weaken their hunting ability. Yet I saw many a dog that was considered a family member with a rightful place (and usually their own sofa) walk away with the silver and ribbons year after year after year. ONe was my own. THe only difference i can see from my own experience with labradors is the family dog is a happier dog because they are included in the activities of daily living instead of being on the outside until a person has time to do something with them.

With you Smkie ......I never would breed to a female that would whelp outside . But then , these were Goldens .

Have we beaten the dead horse to death yet?

The OP is obviously not going to change his methods. No matter how much we interogate him.

Dan, what I am getting insulted at is the fact that the OP has told us that our dogs are worth less and are less interesting. He keeps stating that unless they live outside and eat naturally and behave naturally, they are not worth living. I am arguing that.

Smkie, are you a "guardian" of your dog? I am not. A quality life is always somewhat risky. All our most interesting breeds had been created under harsh conditions of life and physical work. For you personal feeling, it is important so the dog would live long. Evolution is made not by individuals, which live long, but rather by individuals, which left more viable offspring. You spay (or neuter) your dog and keep it for hagging, kissing and looking at him at home. However, such a dog is evolutionary dead, because it cannot contribute in future generation genetically. Look at the population, not individuals, if you care about breed. To my taste, active and capable to perform in field (hunting primarily) dogs are most appealing esthetically and as my companions. Wild animals are most beautiful, but they live in populations, struggling for existence and this is what made them so efficient, tough and beautiful. Aboriginal dogs, which are less dependent on humans and their care, are closer to wild animals and to remain so they must be put to a test to make sure they are what they ought to be. Good dogs love life to a purpose, not just for eating and sleeping. They share with us (well, some of us) the excitement of hard work outside. Those are best dogs for able bodied people. Their very existence is in jeopardy, because of absence of the right environment.

Who are you to dictate what is interesting?

Of course, I am promoting my taste and I know there are many who share my taste and prefer healthy, active and intelligent dogs. A few words about how long wild animals live. It depends of the size and way of life. Among small passerine birds, the highest mortality is among fledglings. Young birds have poor judgement and most often get in trouble. It is like human teenagers, who started driving. However, if a bird passed the first year exam, it has a chance to live several years, up to 5-7 years in some cases. Many of them obtain final beautiful feather color only on the second-third year of life. Big birds, eagles and storks and even big passerine birds, like ravens live many years. Some birds of prey become sexually mature on the second or third third year of life. In general, there is a lot of "injustice" about how long animals life. Thus, a tarantula lives almost as long as our dogs can live. Parrots can live as long as people and often outlive their first and second owners! Longevity is determined genetically and work of doctors on how to be young forever is a waste of time. Biological clock is ticking in every one of us. Therefor, keep good dogs and enjoy life.
Ancestor of all our dogs, wolf, can live up to ten years in zoos, but in the wild rarely longer then 5 years. Most of them die a violent death for a variety of reasons. Aboriginal dogs, for example, sled dogs neer meet their death in peace. Dog fights and constant challenges put their life to an end. Aboriginal Saluki, slow down after age of four-five years and often not valued by their owners any more. Many of them disappear...However, als always, there are exceptionally caring and loving owners even on hunting breeds. My own oldest West Siberian Laikas died, when they were 17 years old.

My dogs are healthy, active and VERY intelligent. Besides occasionally hunting a rabbit, what other activities do your dogs do on a daily basis?

My two walk daily an average of 9kms. They do this fast and with great gusto. My male will often flush squirrels that my female takes down. She has a hit rate of about 1 to every four. She also digs for moles.

My male does agility twice a week and swims in the ocean 3-4 times a week when he comes sailing with us. So, are my dogs not active, healthy and intelligent because they are companion bred toys?

In my experience dogs who learn how to learn are more 'intelligent' than those who just live out.

I have to say my dogs are
by any definition.

This thread is fascinating, and it's got me thinking.

I don't see any abuse, mistreatment, or disregard for his animals...yet posters are continually trying to make something there that isn't. As someone who is pro-homebirth, pro-unassisted birth, and anti-vaccine (in the human capacity), I completely understand and appreciate the OP's point of view.

It's refreshing to hear a different approach to breeding that is so natural, in a way, I view it as him giving something *back* to the breed and respecting how his bitch would prefer to whelp and raise her puppies.

Now, I'll admit to being a pet owner, only. I do not know much about working dogs, show dogs, etc. But I'm fairly intelligent and can draw my own conclusions about what I think is abuse, and frankly, I don't see it.

OP, your pups are beautiful! Please post more pictures and give updates! Kudos for going against the westernized standard of care and allowing instinct and nature to rule.

i am for as natural as possible.

But Mommakat2x.. do you think I should have let Dekka's pups die? I should have just stood back and let her die refusing to assist?

What gets me is the idea that he is doing things 'naturally' .. no he's not. Its the contradictions that get me. Feeding kibble and ground beef of all things is far less natural than what I feed.. and I don't go on about be all natural.

I too am minimal vaccine, raw food, minimal vetting etc etc. But I will no let my dogs die because its 'natural' I won't brag about who natural my dogs are and then contradict that very statement.

This is what I have been trying, and failing, to get across.

I always have terribly mixed feelings.

There's a Fila breeder in Yelapa who also lived in Florida part of the time. He has a reputation for letting the whelp take its course, no matter what. I can't fathom letting your Fila bitch lay there with a pup stuck for however long it takes, or just be too tired (they tend to have big litters -- 11 isn't unusual) and lose pup(s) and bitch, BUT dayum, he has got some awesome dogs . . .

I just don't understand how you can be present watching YOUR dog, who YOU bred having trouble, and just .. not doing anything about it.
that would break my heart.
IMO if I bred the dog, i would feel like it was my responsibility to make sure she whelps safely.

Fransheska, you are exactly right. I fee the same as you. Also, what gets me about the OP, is that he downs ALL of our dogs as though they are "less" than his. There ARE other kinds of dogs in the world besides hunting dogs. It's the OP's ways and thaughts or no ways. Nothing matters to him/her unless someone happens to agree with something HE said.

I must have missed the insults everyone else is taking such offense to. I have a house dog, and she certainly is prissier and needier than the OP's dogs sound like. Nothing wrong with that. She's smart, has high prey drive, super energy, and chases squirrels like it's her job, but I would never compare her to a working dog. They're just two different animals.

Would I ever get a working dog? No, probably not. It's not what matches my lifestyle. But I know that my dog wouldn't make it 2 minutes outside in the winter before she was crying to come back in (pansy!) and there's something to be admired about the OP's dogs for being able to do that.

Thanks, Cali I was beginning to wonder if I was missing something as I wasn't finding any intentional insults either, just a different perspective than what most of us have been exposed to.

Wow, what I thread, it took me two hours to read this all, but I finally did. I have a few things to remark about the way OP does things though, but before jumping to conclusions, just hear me out for a moment.

I think it is fine if he lets his bitch have her babies unassisted or whatever. The only thing that ticks me off is the fact that he DOESN'T check on them say they DID need help, would you actually be there to help them, I understand that your ways of making them live 'longer' as you say is outside, but what if they were in trouble? Say some rabid animal came to attack your pups, how would you know? How could you save them? Wouldn't you feel guilty about this?

Also another thing, I strongly believe in seeing vets at birth, I know that you don't, but what if one pup just happened to be ill... since you never had that problem by what it makes you sound like, you would have no clue what illness looks like. Am I right? And also, I was wondering do the pups have to do their business in that floor where they sleep as well? Because did you know the stench of their feces and urine could kill them if they smell it too long for a extent of more than a week? Especially since they are so young. I mean they do look nice and healthy, but I am still not convinced everything is as perfect as you make it sound.

Please reply, thanks.