Is raw for real?

I will be the 1st to say that feeding raw doesn't guarantee any more years on your dogs life, and I don't think that is part of the debate that has arisin. What I will debate is the quality of those years. I look at our late Midnite's condition prior to feeding raw, and how she lived the last 2 years of her life, and she clearly had it better. She was more vibrant and most definitely in a healthier state. She seemed to enjoy her life, with a spring in her old arthritic step, and she loved her dinner time. The reason we put her on it was when we started Gunnar, she and Bruzer would get all excited about the new smells and everything that surrounded the prep of the raw dinner for Gunnar. Then I'd put down her bowl of kibble, and she'd give me this sad look. So we put her on it too.

A couple pages back someone asked about supps. I give fish oil caps along with vitamin E to Gunnar, because he doesn't like fish. I can sneak canned mackerel in on him if I mix it with ground beef- thats what he's had the last 2 days. I have some doggie vitamins, I'll give them each one of those a couple times a week. Other than that the only supplements are food items like eggs or yogurt. The rest of the diet is raw meaty bones, muscle meat, and organ meat.

Gem, you opened a great topic here, please don't be offended. I don't think Whatz meant anything negative in their comments. It's pretty obvious that those of us who feed raw truly believe in it and are passionate about it, but I think we're all pretty level headed.

Herschel, the comments about the runny stools is about wild canines, it's shown that the order in which they eat a kill affects their stools, and our dogs would be the same way. I read a story on another forum where a lady's husband fed the dogs for her and gave them an entire package of kidneys. You know that the result of that was. If you keep a good bone to muscle/organ ratio, the stools are firm, compact and healthy, if that is a word you can use to describe stools!

I do just have to add, it is incredible peace of mind to know you don't have to worry about what you are putting into your dog's bowl.

I've been debating going over to raw for a while now and with the whole recall thing, even more so. I already give raw snacks, chicken necks/wings and the occasional RMB rec bone. Ground beef is a big favorite as well. So yeah, once I get things settled out, I'm going to try it and see.

our dogs get a mainly raw diet. we feed them biscuits aswell for snacks. but they don't get so much. other than that they get chicken neck, turkey necks, chicken thighs, beef and lamb soup bones, lamb offcuts and if we find cheap mince then we'll cook it up wiht some pasta and veggies and feed them that.
buster never had canned food for about 5 years. when he was real hungry and i couldn't find anything else i'd give him a can of pedigree (i dunno why we always had them, i think it was to give to sophie sometimes, or daisy) and 30 minutes later he would get sick and throw it all up.

but we found a brand called "natures gift" it smells like real food, not dogfood. you can actually see hte bits of corn and veggie in it. it doesn't make them sick. its more expensive but it seems like a much better alternative to the other brands. mums never liked feeding canned food to our dogs because we agreed that most dog food is an excuse to mash together all the most disgusting un-nutritius bit of slaughterhouse leftovers and make money from them.


so our dogs have a pretty varied diet, plsu the bones everyday means their teeth are a lot cleaner then dogs fed only canned food. same reason we give panda some chicken bones whenver he's around.

oh, and as for veggies, i do believe they are important. but all our dogs are grazers. lol i swear their part cow. there is a big paddock behind our hosue and you let them out into it and they all run olike mad then just stand around and eat grass. its realy odd, their mad on it.

plus leftovers! alwasy hey get the leftovers. lol

I haven't read through the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said or not.. but there are plenty of books with helpful guidelines for feeding homecooked and raw diets. There's also Mordy.

I have started feeding home cooked CORRECTLY as of today. But correctly according to a book i bought
"holistic guide for a healthy dog"
it is mainly about raw diets, but according to this nearly the same rules apply to home cooked, other than there is one more thing to add. however this book wants you to supplement like CRAZY. i mean like 10 different supplements rotating some days. i dont see my self doing that much supplementing.

it includes grain every single day. Grains are breakfast, meat for diner. and of course, dairy , eggs, etc

I have that book, it's good.

awesome. i am using it sorta as a bible right now. however i seriously doubt i will do this diet raw. maybe with out chicken and no bones!

I know how you feel Gemp. I was looking on the internet at first, and it totally boggled my mind. So, I've decided to go with books instead. BP was kind enough to send me her book list. I'd be glad to forward it to anyone that's interested.

I've got a question, as of yesterday, my dogs are on the Nature's Variety pre-packaged raw, seeing as I would be absolutely terrified to have to make up their own diet. Mordy said over what we're feeding now it's the choice she'd make, so I made it

This whole bones in the x-ray's is kind of freaking me out though I must admit.

Yesterday I heard them chewing on some pieces of bone and they ate it without a problem, but I'm a bit worried.

Any raw feeders here have anything to give me some piece of mind? LOL

I was told by my trainer that I should be expecting some runny poos seeing as we just switched cold turkey, but suprisingly I've not seen one.

And today, Hades had one, very small, hard poop in comparison to his normal 3-4 large, hard but somewhat "claylike" poos on kibble/canned.

Roxy as well had one poop (she usually has two) that was about a quarter of the size of her normal poops.

That's the only change I've noticed, but I'm pretty surprised actually seeing as today is only the second day they've had "raw", even those it's pre-packaged.

Hey Gemp, just wanted to add to whats been said I completely understand sitting on the fence of not being sure to switch or not. The one thing that finally did get me to switch however (besides the thousands of sick and dead pets from both low end and now recently high end kibbles) is that I really don't put much weight on nutrional studies done on pet foods. Why you may ask? Well a quick look at any of the companies that sponsered the studies will reveal a billion dollar industry that I personally doubt is publishing those results for the good of our pets but to lure them into buying there products and convincing us kibble is the only way to go.

For me and Duke were starting with the pre-made raw patties. Now with any raw diet the focus is more nurtrion over time with variety not all packed into one bite ( which may be the reason so many dogs develop allergies and food intolerances over time) so these patties like everything else in raw need to be changed around now and then to ensure your dog is not only eating one type of meat.

We started out today on healthy paws, a Toronto based company and will be keeping Duke on this diet for a few weeks until his system acclimates and then begin playing around with starting out just with Chicken, the add RMB's, then add offal and organs along with everything else giving a week or two inbetween each step up to allow for proper digestion. Though I know by dental shape dogs are carnivours I still think there are important trace minerals veggies can offer and as such will be offering a small amount of them a few times a week mixed in with his meals along with fish oils, apple cider viniger and the list goes on of other things you can change around and add.

Here's a pick of what Duke's pre-made food looks like when its prepared. Duke gives it three Yums up.

( The white stuff is a small amount of probiotic yougurt im mixing in for the first few days to help the transition)




Kayla

I'll just say once again that the deal breaker for me was to see how my dog did on it. It was amazing... And also to hear from a trusted friend and mentor and about how she thought it was the best way to keep a dog in top shape. Like I said, she's paid based on how well she can condition and show dogs. She does a good job and has for years and it shows. I've never seen my own dog look nearly as good as he did while he was on raw. That's as good a testamony as I need. I do what's best for him.

Hmm. It's interesting to hear about all those positive experiences. I'm seriously debating about trying raw, but I don't know. I keep finding articles to the contrary that just make a lot of sense to me.

http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070406/LIFE/704060302/1059

Any thoughts on these articles?

The 1st one the guy is in the pet food business. Of course he will shoot down anything that goes against his money maker. His food is over 60% brown rice. Not really appropriate for a dog. People have to stop thinking that a dogs nutritional needs are anything like a humans!

The 2nd one doesn't really say anything new. Dog's "might" get salmonella. Doubtful. If my dogs haven't gotten salmonella after 2 years of eating raw chicken, it's not going to happen. And anyone who knows anything about their dog isn't feeding onions, garlic, grapes, raisins or anything else we know is toxic. None of those things have a place in a raw diet. Pancreatitis- yes that can be a risk if you are feeding your dog huge chunks of hard fat. Otherwise, the fat generally found on raw food items is not only harmless, but beneficial, since dogs need a higher fat content in their diets.

I like how the vet guides owners to talk to their vet about their dog's diet. Since they won't be seeing them anymore for allergies or nearly any other illnesses, they gotta get that last fee in.

First let me say that you should feed whatever you are comfortable feeding. If Raw doesn't make sense to you, there's no need to switch, and if feeding kibble gives you piece of mind and you're happy with your dog, then keep at it.

But I will address issues I have with the first link
http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm

In it he says that canines need carbs, and he's right. I highly disagree on the amount he says they need. They need very little, and their efficiency at digesting them is very small. They are much better suited to digesting and using the nutrients from raw meat over corn wheat or rice. That's why so much more food needs to be given in the form of kibble over raw, and that's why you pick up at least double or triple the amount of waste, they don't get to use. I've never seen anything that states canines need a large amount of carbs in their diet, other than anti-raw sites.

Another problem I have is yes, dogs have changed in appearance since their days as wolves. Their GI systems have NOT. They are almost identical still. In addition heavy grain diets haven't been around very long. Yes, they used to make dog biscuits from rice and wheat or old bread, but its funny reading stuff from the early1900's that say if you feed this "drippings" (grease) blood broth and raw blood needed to be added to give the dog the proper nutrition. Otherwise scrap meat and horse flesh was preferred. They haven't been fed high carb diets very long in the grand scheme of things, and although they can digest carbs, it is very inefficient.

and to address the sensitivity issue, sure there's sensitive stomachs. Why is that though?? I certainly don't have issues with it, nor do I know many people that do. If you've eaten nothing but cereal for every meal of your life and suddenly someone gives you filet mignon you'll probably have an upset stomach. Same as if a vegitarian (for years) ate at McD's or someone that only eats meat, ate a pile of veggies (can you imagine the gas ) It has nothing to do (except maybe in rare cases) with dogs not being able to eat raw food. To me it is much more likely the preservatives and unusually high carb load in kibble, but I am obviously bias.

he talks about the activity level of our dogs, well that isn't a diet issue, its a we need to get off our butt's and exercise them issue. If you can't do that, you feed them less of a very bioavailable food (based on activity) NOT feed them a higher amount of food they do very little with but poop out.

His whole cooking thing does make some sense, but again on a limited level. and a lot of it is based on HUMAN digestive systems, not canine. Cooking does aid in the the digestibility of meat for us. It breaks down the bonds and we can digest it easier. We do also loose some in the cooking process too. Canines have a GI system designed to digest and use meat. I've seen some studies show as high as 95% efficiency for canines digesting and using raw meat. That is astronomically high. But for humans, cooking veggies or baking fruit does decrease the nutrional value, but for dogs it almost as if we must do it, and puree it, cook it, break the cell walls down, just so some nutrients are available to them.

as for the second one, they cover a lot of risks,bu they are small risks, that they make to seem the norm. Sure bones get stuck. I've never had a vet anywhere tell me that they regularly remove bones from raw fed animals. I have had a 2 though tell me that most obstructions are from squeaker toys, or toys in general, and bones dug out of the trash, not raw fed dogs.

The bacT arguement is a non issue to me. Their GI is set up to handle high bacT loads. and 40% of all dogs, kibble or raw shed salmonella in their feces. Its the same with anything, these BacT are everywhere, in almost everything, always. Just like most of us have E.coli in us, and the influenza virus at all times, our healthy bodies just keep them in check. Same as a healthy dog's will.

anyway, i've been in and out while typing this so I forget what I thought and what I actually wrote, i'm going to just post it while I have the chance.

Gemp just follow your gut. You know how to do research and there are a lot of quality kibble brands on the market. I think there are a lot of perks to feeding raw and for me the biggest one is knowing exactly what goes into my dogs. The second biggest is they pooped a lot less lol. But there is nothing wrong with feeding kibble if that is what you are comfortable doing. You know there are always going to be two sides to every story and that even the research and scientists will never agree

I wish I could hear scientific arguments from either side of this, but all that I've read is a lot of hand-waving.

From reading and hearing about people's experiences, I've learned that it works fantastically for some dogs and not so well for others. That just reinforces something all of us already know: all dogs are different and there is no "perfect diet".

The first article made some interesting points but failed to back them up with any citations or scientific evidence. However, he did make one statement that I agree with completely:

"BARFism puts forward a flawed theory with a certainty which bears comparison to religious fundamentalism; it brooks no dissent. It advocates a system which is impractical and does not fit well into the lifestyle of present society, denying the possibility of alternatives, thereby condemning those pet owners, the majority, to feelings of inadequacy for failure to follow its teachings."

Regarding the Barfism comment, I don't feel that way Herschel, but if that is what you think raw feeders believe, that is clearly your right. I don't see how what I feed is impractical, and how it fits into present society matters little to me. It's practical for me and as far as society goes, a lot of what society projects as the "right" way is far worse than me feeding raw meat to my animals. I don't preach my diet to anyone. When people ask about it, I answer. One of the ladies in Gunnars class got to talking to me about her 1 year old's horrible teeth and tarter, and I showed her Gunnar's. She asked how they were so clean and I told her. We spoke about the diet for a few minutes and then class was over. The next week she said she had borrowed some books from a friend who feeds raw, read them and did some research, and switched her dog over. If that is preaching, then I guess I'm guilty. I'm not going door to door or standing out in front of pet stores condemning those who buy Pedigree.

I feel the same way.

I actually don't see anyone here who feeds raw saying that everyone should do it or it's the only way or if you feed kibble you're killing your dog.

I haven't actually had a conversation with a militant raw feeding zealot yet although I know there are some out there-- they just sure aren't the typical or majority of raw feeders. (contrary to what some people seem to want people to believe about raw feeders ) None of the raw feeders I know are radically anti kibble and they all do feed kibble and canned at various times - hard to travel to dog events, stay in motels and camp grounds with multiple dogs and always bring raw.

I hemmed and hawed about going raw for a long time. The tough thing for me was feeling like I couldn't get much really great unbiased information. It's tough when for the most part, the studies done on feeding dogs are paid for by kibble companies and have nothing to do with raw vs kibble or even anything studying the high end kibbles.

In the end for me, after everything I read and thought about, raw made more sense than a kibbled diet although I feed kibble and cooked food including fish and tripe regularly. There may come a time that my dogs go back onto just kibble and canned because of convenience and I won't be too worried about it.

In the circles I travel now, I know far more raw feeders than kibble feeders. I think 90% of my agility and obedience friends feed raw. I'm not saying that's a reason to do it or not do it, but I can tell you that that's been a comfort to me just knowing so many dogs who have eaten it for 10 years + and never had a problem.
The herding people I know mostly feed Costco food- and their dogs mostly look pretty good to me. RD is right-- dogs can survive and even thrive on all sorts of things. It's also hard to judge health just by looking at the outside of a dog or looking at poop :lol-sign: I do feel like I see some health benefits in my dogs feeding raw over high end kibble , but the biggest ones are teeth and poop-- certainly teeth can be brushed and kept clean by other means and poop, well I don't decide what's healthy for me based on my poop.



Also if your concerned about bones -- feed ground raw. I fed ground raw for months before I started feeding raw meaty bones. When I looked into what's most often pulled out of dog's GI tracts in surgery , I found that the #1 is tennis balls and other toys, I think socks might be #2 LOL . Rawhides are up there too yet nobody seems to panic about rawhides-- vets sell them for goodness sake cooked bones can be absolutely lethal. I asked the e-vet, who opposes raw feeding about how often he's actually seen a dog with a bone problem from raw feeding the answer was zero. His biggest problem with it is bacteria. I'm not at all worried about that part. I know my dogs have consumed food contaminated with bacteria by now. They've not been sick from it. I also had the misfortune of owning a dog who ate poop all the time-- he certainly never was sick from it and that's guaranteed to be FULL of bacteria including e.coli and salmonella. My currents dogs eat sheep poop, deer poop etc. opcorn:

I certainly have had dogs throw up a chunk of bone (from recreational bones usually beef knuckles) and I am careful when feeding bones. I think it makes sense to be careful.

I would encourage people who are interested in feeding raw to read some of the better books on the topic. If you look at www.dogwise.com there are several. I would suggest Tom Lonsdale's book and some of the books by Billinghurst, I think Kathy Schmultze's book is supposed to be great too. (?sp)


Just my rambling two cents as usual.

well, I must be anti.

There has been no kibble whatsoever in this household for many years.

People should feed what works best for their dogs. For me and my dogs for the last about 15 years, that's been raw.

Why must people harp about raw diets? I don't get it. If you don't want to feed raw, then don't.

I personally don't think there is any dog out there who would not benefit from fresh food in the diet, but that's just me.