To Dock Or Not To Dock

Neat reply :hail:

I'm neutral wit the docking/ croping.

I lke more the looks of a neapolitan mastiff wit natural ears, but doberman and boxers looks better wit the crop but I can undested why some people don't crop them.

And a dobeman wit natural ears and tail is still a doberman (same wit other breeds)

At least in the FCI you have options to duck, crop or not (in some countries) a show dog.

:hail:

Yes, Jaclyn, I'm sorry if I was a little bit nippy there. *slaps a muzzle on self* I've been in a chronic bad mood due to rl. You shouldn't be sad about starting the thread, it wasn't a bad thing.

Not sure if this has already been said, but I think the question should be... why NOT dock if its tradition? Because its cruel? If thats the case, then why not save newborn baby boys from cruelty by banning circumsision? Its the same thing in my opinion.

People say that dogs who work should be the only ones who get docked, but the thing is, docking is apart of the breed standard with certain breeds. Just like coat color, height, eye shape, and rear angulation is (just to name a few). If docking shouldnt matter then why should anything else? Because its about breed conservation and tradition whether the dog works or not.

In my opinion, I think rotties look good with docked tails, but I would never own one, because docking is appart of the breed.

Yes, the Stumpy is a very similar looking dog but not the same. I can see how people can be confused by the two. Especially since they're quite uncommon even here in Australia. Most people wouldn't know much about them (let alone that they exist).

Cass.

I don't want to stop this thread. I find it very interesting. What I don't like about it is the people that are the most pro-docking are not willing to participate much. I understand that it can be a touchy subject but c'mon. If you are so for it then why not talk about it. I just don't want everyone to get into a p!$$ing match that is all. We have seen enough of it here lately.

I really do want to understand both sides of it.

You do make a good point, so I suppose I am all for talking about it. Honestly I can see both sides, why some would think it is "cruel and imhumane" but the truth of the matter is people with this point of view are usually the people who have never see a docking take place. They just think " omg your cutting off a puppies tail!" and logically, yes that is what takes place. But it is done usually between 2-3 days, and a tiny stitch is inserted that will fall out as the puppy grows, and is done by a professional vet.Yes, the puppy will scream, but mostly they are screaming before because they are taken away from thier mother, and once returned to the mother, all are happy campers. As far as long term effects, I have yet to see any. I have yet to have a dog "miss" its tail.

Now as far as reasons for doing it, working & history/tradition both play a part imo.The breeds that were docked/cropped when they were first developed had a purpose and vary from breed to breed. Personally, I do not do any "work" with my dogs, but I do show in conformation and the history of the Rottweiler is to be a docked breed. And until I do not have that option anymore legally ( which I will fight with tooth and nail as I have stated before) I will continue to honor the standard approved by the American Rottweiler Club and will take pride in every docked puppy that leaves here. I do not approve of tailed Rottweilers showing in AKC along with my docked dogs because I followed the standard. There is nothing in the Rottweiler standard that talks about a tail, so how can a judge properly judge something that there are no guidelines on how it should be judged.

God didnt intend breeds to be the way they were. People took the time to selectivly breed these animals to a way that fit them, if they needed to dock or crop thier animals for a reason, let it be so. By breeding dogs people are playing God. We decide if they can reproduce, when they eat, how they behave and even if they remain alive. It is not illegal to alter or put an animal to sleep for numerous reasons.

Bulldogs, for example, have been bred selectively so they can no longer breed or give birth naturally. Mastiffs are normally are bred through AI because of thier sheer size would be too much on the bitches back and hips. People bred for this, God did not make them this way. I find it laughable when people mention the "way God intended them".

There are much bigger battles to fight then whether or not a person should be allowed to humanely alter thier animals. People who are against cropping and docking should also be against spaying and neutering, because, in all fairness, God intended them to have reproductive organs.

Is a good point to say PROFETIONAL VET, sadly they are people who duck when the puppies are 4 weeks old, I know of some cases of ducking at 4 months or even more.

I see why some people don't like a tailed rottweiler , doberman, boxer or other breed, is more because of beeing used to the person to see it that way.

At first I didn't like rott whit tails, but now that I have seein some tailed ones I stared to like it, but that dosen't mean I hate the docked ones.

In the akc standar maybe, but judges who are from another countries or the ones on usa (and judge in other countries) who had read the FCI standar knows:
this is from the FCI page



TAIL : In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease may be hanging.

FAULTS : Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.

Tail : Set on too high or too low.

ELIMINATING FAULTS :

Tail : Kink tail, ring-tail, with strong lateral deviation.

First of all, its called DOCKING not ducking...

And since I live in the US, the only standard I care to follow is what the American Kennel Club has for the Rottweiler breed.

4 weeks is too late IMO and I would never dOck a puppy at that age.

An interesting point was brought up to me regarding rottie tails (since we are on the subject) and that is, since rotties have been docked for so long, now that we are seeing tailed rotties we are also seeing a varyance in type of tail. The tail was the "forgotten" part since it was always cut off before anybody could tell what it would become. Any thoughts on this?

Exactly,

No one in this era knows what a correct Rottweiler tail is suppose to look like... length, curl ect. So how are you suppose to say "thats correct/incorrect" when no one knows truely what it is suppose to be.

Just gotta throw my 2 cents in here. The American Veterinary Medical Association's quote:

http://network.bestfriends.org/animallawcoalition/news/4660.html

I believe natural does refer to an undocked, uncropped dog of a certain breed? When someone says natural, I think ears and tail. I don't know who would refer to a cropped and docked dog as natural. Traditional, sure, but not natural.

Cropping and docking may be for aesthetic reasons, and it may be considered selfish, but then why wouldn't selectively breeding dogs to suit our needs and wants not also be selfish? Technically, floppy ears aren't "natural." We bred for them.

But, how many teenagers do you know that would ask to have someone remove their uterus or testicles?

I'm by no means arguing that we shouldn't be spaying and neutering our pets, but I wouldn't choose to have it done to myself. Removing reproductive organs is just as unnatural as removing ears and tails.

I don't really compare spaying/neutering with tail docking. One has many benefits, the other does not.

There really is no use in discussing this anymore, becuase you will always have bleeding hearts who think that its so painful and abusive.

*rolls eyes*

I didn't think the AVMA was a bleeding heart organization

**rolls eyes back**

Im sure they wouldn't encourage docking/cropping because when a working dog gets its tail sliced open more $$ for them Or wait, arent they supporters of PETA?... would make sence.

*rolls eyes back in head til she can see her brain*

Don't bitch slap me or anything....

You would like that too much!

*gets the bitch slap ready*

Is that quote by chance referring to ADULT dogs or PUPPIES? Because the process is quite different between the two, being that adults have full developed cartilidge in the ears and bone structure in the tail. It does talk about the vet carefully consulting OWNERS rather than BREEDERS which to me gives the impression they are referring to only owners with adult dogs.