Coolies

First is a PyrShep

Second is a PyrShep

Third is an Aussie

Fourth is an Aussie

Fifth is PyrShep

Sixth is a PyrShep

So definitely...some PyrSheps look like working Aussies Although to be fair, they are likely a foundation breed for Aussies. It is funny though cause looking at this, you never think Aussie:

So again, I say, if Ozzy worked like a Koolie, and I don't know if he does, I'm afeared for the sheep I'd have to introduce him to, he would be a Koolie. His angulation, head shape and tail set can be explained by poor breeding practices. I've seen plenty of Koolies with straight legs, and if curly tails don't exist in Koolies, then what is Zinga, because as I understand it, hers curls too. Most dog breeds carry for gay tails. Even GSDs.

And if I was in Australia, he would either be a Koolie or a Koolie mix. Not what he actually is, if I had plucked him out of the shelter. It's only by virtue of me being in the US that he's not.

So either it's the type that defines a Koolie, which you've already said, or it's the way they work that defines a Koolie, which, pending introduction to sheep, could possibly make Ozzy a Koolie.

so which is it?

And if your Coolies have Koolie a few generations back, and your Koolies have Coolie in them, but they're completely different breeds now, then what are your dogs? Mutts?

Actually, the AKC Siberian Huskies do not share the same origins to Seppala's stock, or the CAN/EUR lines. That is why they look different. They were bred only for conformation from the very beginning, and 90% of the breed in the AKC came from 2 kennels.

I think of the K/Coolie more as an Alaskan. The Alaskan has no physical standard, only a working one. Many Alaskan lines are bred for one avenue of work, and some breeders are no longer outcrossing their dogs. Those lines conformed VERY quickly. You can tell they are related, they are bred for one purpose. Ditto Chinooks.

Which is why I don't "buy" that these C/Koolies are no longer being outcrossed. Even feral populations even out fairly quickly, especially with a smaller gene pool. The consistency emerges after only a few generations. Are there still differences? Of course! If any breeds have showed that, it's the Aussie and BC. Even the Sibes. Major differences DO occur in head type, overall bone, and most other conformation aspects. But almost any dog person can pick out an Aussie, a BC, and a Sibe from a crowd.

I'm not so sure the same could be said of a c/Koolie. Especially with not even a loose standard.

Or maybe Avalon's dogs and Yata Hae's dogs and Coolibar's dogs all came from different origins, like the first AKC Sibes? And that is why they look so incredibly different from other breeders?(not just Linds and Sara's breeder, but others as well)

There are curly tails like sharpeis (like ozzys) and then there are gay tails...like zinga i am assuming...so still and because i know ozzy i not a coolie i would also know he would not work like one...again this comes down to a trained eye...and a knowledge of the different kennels...the seperation in coolies is a decade old, so yes you will one in the other, and some still do as they please with that...depends on who you talk to in the breed...and so far chaz has only had Linds Sara and only recently myself...

and on a side note, the information given to you all at chaz so far has been pretty basic and superficial

Ozzy's tail is not like a sharpeis, that is the trick of the camera. He normally carries it loosely behind him, just curled. It is really nothing like a sharpei tail. And I've met plenty of sharpeis to know.

And you don't know, because no one has ever seen him work. So that's out right there.

And you have no idea who I've talked to about Koolies, so please don't assume.

You yourself were the one that said Koolies are different from Coolies, and then went on to say your dogs were a mix of Koolie and Coolie. So if you're mixing them, again I ask, what does that make your dogs?

I have a very good friend in the sledding world and I will make sure to pick her brains about Alaskans and the split, so that i can comment from a more informed position...sounds interesting

I am not mixing anything...I breed German Coolie to German Coolie....there are breeders lines in my dogs history that call their dogs Australian Coolies (Toolalla) yes...

And I was only asked to judge Ozzy by his picture so camera tricks are included I guess....but I can assure you that no matter how many different pictures you post of him I will maintain my assurance he is not Koolie nor Coolie

You are not answering the question.

and if you told he was I would demand import docs and known pedigree

My dogs are German Coolies I thought that was said many times sorry

Umm...ES don't come in merle........




Nothing else to contribute. This thread makes my head hurt.

So, the Coolie is bred from a working standard, that is different from other herding breeds, including the ACD and Kelpie. Any physical standard is loose.

Yet dogs can be disqualified from being a Coolie based on head shape and Tail Set.

Ok then. The more I try to figure out these dogs, the more I get confused.

We have a decade old breed split, resulting in different names.
We have two breed websites that say working ability is foremost, and then spend much more time talking about physical characteristics.

This is the entire working standard I found on the German Coolie registry page

Then lets have the real info.

What we have now is just driving us batty with internal inconsistencies.

And the point I am trying to make is that dogs that look similar to landraces can pass for that landrace. I've never seen a smooth coated Aussie, so obviously it would be near impossible to convince an Aussie person he was an Aussie, but they would believe he was half Aussie (which he is. His mother was a prize winning stock dog) nor could he pass as a JRT, even though his father was a purebred JRT.

However, he looks enough Koolie to pass for Koolie to a layperson. Which most people are.

He's not similar enough to any "breed" to pass as that breed, which is whatever, he is what he is, except for Koolie. So again, had he been rescued in Australia, he would have been a Koolie/mix.

Anyway, the point being that it's not so easy to identify dogs that are a land-race a lot of the time. Perhaps expert-master people might be able to, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, most of the time it's called a duck. The only difference seems to be some of your ducks look like geese.

Wait, ok, so in your opinion, are German Coolies and Australian Koolies the same breeds? Or different breeds?

Because it sounds to me like you're saying they are different breeds, but your dogs, even ones you have said are called Australian Koolies (or Coolies) are German Coolies. So are they different breeds, but you can use the names interchangabley? In that case, could I call an English Shepherd a German Shepherd?

It takes a trained eye to notice these differences in head shape, tail sets, etc...working style would be the easiest disqualification for any "imposter" to me, personally....the complexities of this breed are a bit to get ones head around, no doubt, another reason why not just anybody should jump on the "wow i love my new breed I want to breed it train"....research, imvested time and knowledge, extensif discussions with MULTIPLE different kennel owners from all "sides" of the name split....and much much more KNOWLEDGE ...knowing is all one can do as a breeding so we can "stack the deck" in our favor as much as possible for stable, even tempered, incredible working dogs that happen to be very very good looking

OOPS! Sorry!!! My bad!

You HAVE said that. And you have ALSO said that your dogs have KOOLIE in their lines, and you have ALSO said mixing those two is not something to do because they are different breeds now, but OTHER (somehow lesser breeders seems to be what you are saying) breeders do this, but not YOU, and YET, you have ALSO SAID your dogs are Coolies with Koolie in their pedigree. SO WHAT DOES THAT MAKE THEM? Not German Coolies because that's Coolie to Coolie, and not Koolies, because that's Koolie to Koolie, and yet here you are breeding dogs that are from Koolie to Coolie, even if it was a few generations back, which is in all likelyhood less that ten years ago, because dogs can be bred quickly and change quickly.

Yes. Thank you.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!