My 1st post: Re. food guarding. Problem or normal?

Hi there, have been a CDRom here for some time. Just registered for posting a question. Your kind advice pls.

My doggie is a 4-month-old toy poodle. He has been staying in my home for a month. Here is a photo of him:



Since he came, I trained his behaviour everyday. I also put attention to every details to make sure I and my gf dominant him (no violence/ body punishment). He behaved very well, e.g. he waits for 5 mins besides his bowl and eats after our command, and when he does something improper, he will stop immediately if we say “no”.

Everything goes fine until yesterday. He was teething a Greenies when my gf touched him softly and saying “good boy”. He then sounded like “who” and seemed like angry. My gf then stopped. I found it was improper for him to do so. Then I tested him. The outcome was the same. Although he did not turn his month to us, it is not something acceptable to me. I then took away his Greenies. After a min break, I gave it to him again, touched him and, “who” again. He then immediately swallowed the big piece of Greenies!!!! He looked like uncomfortable for a min after that. I worried.

That was the first time I saw his food guarding motion. We had no problem before, even when we took away his bowl during his meal.

My gf said we should not disturb his meal anymore. But I did not agree. What if a child walk close to him when he was having a meal in the future? My gf argued that was the "nature" of a dog and what we did made him identify us as his enemies who wanted to rob his food.

What I am going to try is keep touching him during his meal until he feels comfortable. Or I will offer something more tasty to his bowl while touching him. Am I training properly?

Thanks in advance

P.S. Sorry for my terrible English. Wish you understand.

I totally understand where you're coming from. I have the same mentality when it comes to bones, toys or food with my dogs. Growling, snarling or making any sound of protest is totally unacceptable. The way I worked with my dogs, well, what I did with them, is not really held high on this forum and it turns out that I'm lucky my dogs did not react in a much worse manner than the behaviour I intended to ensure would not occur... That sentence sounds odd, sorry LOL

From what I understand, and as you mentioned, the proper way to "train" or desensitize a dog to the owner/you taking away something of value is having something of higher value to "trade with".

The basis I believe is: You have something, I'll trade you something better for it. So their mentality is: It's definitely not a BAD thing, sometimes it's a good thing when I "give up" my toy/bone.

I agree completely that "food guarding" is unacceptable, for the same reasons as you mentioned, if small children are around etc.

Hope I explained myself well and good luck!

Why do you make him wait for 5 minutes sitting by his bowl? I'd be frustrated and possessive if someone did that to me. Why do you take away his bowl whiles he's eating? What would you do if you had something which you valued very highly taken away from you? You get my meaning? You're creating defensiveness in your dog. Why do you feel that you have to dominate him? What do you mean by dominate? When you took away his Greenie, again...you're taking something of value from him. Giving it back a whole minute later is an eternity to a dog.

I'll give you my opinion and you can do whatever you like, but here it is: First of all, instead of having it in your mind that you need to dominate your tiny dog, have it in your mind that teaching him the manners and skills you want him to learn comes by teaching in a way a dog can best understand and that is with learning theory, motivation and reward based training, not absolute domination.

I would stop using a food bowl for a while. If he knows how to sit, ask for a sit and give him some pieces of his food from your hand. If he can lie down, ask him for a down and give him some food. Ask for a sit again, then a few pieces of food. Shake hands? Give a bite of food. Do this for a few days, then put the bowl down, ask him to sit and wait for about 3 or 4 seconds, drop a few pieces of food in it and release him from his sit/wait with your release word, and let him eat. Then just drop some more food in his bowl without making him sit and wait. You don't need to harrass your puppy to death while he's eating. Drop in a tiny piece of something super tasty, better than his kibble. Gradually, after several days, lower your hand to the bowl while you put in the food and the occassional piece of cheese or hotdog. Then leave him be to eat the rest.

Give him a couple of weeks of this before leaving his entire meal in a bowl for him. When he is not worried about you taking away his food, but instead sees you as a wonderful thing to have around his food (because you are the one providing it and cheese) then go ahead and put his whole meal in the bowl. Ask him to sit/wait for just a 3 or 4 seconds, not 5 minutes. That's unfair, frustrating and unnecessary.

Once a day, go to him while he's eating and bend down and put in a small piece of something very very tasty; hot dog, chicken, cheese (tiny). Important: If he does growl or snarl, do not give him the treat at that time. Do nothing. Wait until he is calm and relaxed with you standing there and try again. If he growls, do not punish him or say, "no." Go back to hand feeding him for another week if needed. If he's fine with you by his food bowl, putting your hands near it, stand near him while he eats for part of the time, but don't pester him. Sit down on the floor next to him once in a while when he eats. Once or twice a week, sit down and put the food in his bowl while you hold it on your lap and let him eat out of it. You can phase this all out later, as he gets very comfortable and trusting in you. If at any time he is not comfortable, go back to a previous stage where you're hand feeding him and asking him to earn pieces of food.

Meanwhile, every day a few times, teach him "give" and "take." Give him a toy which he does not value highly, but still likes. Have some tiny pea-sized treats in your pocket (mozerrella cheese, hot dog tid bits, fresh meat...something yummy) or on a table next to you. Here is the process:

1st) Hold the treat in front of him until he drops the toy to get the treat. Pick up the toy at the same time you give the treat. And praise. Give him back the toy. This is a GAME. So, make it fun and use your playful voice. Repeat. Toss the toy a foot or two away and encourage him to bring it to you. Show him the treat. Hold your hand out for him to make the trade. (he drops it into your hand, you give him the treat and praise) Then give the toy back to him also.

Next: When you see that he is getting onto this game and readily dropping the toy into your hand and getting playful, stop holding the treat in front of him anymore. Now, hold your hand out and see if he'll drop it first. THEN give him the treat immediately after. Praise him. Make a huge fun deal out of it. Give him back his toy and let him play with it for a while. When he is catching on and giving you the toy easily, add the cue, "give" and when you give the toy back to him into his mouth, give the cue, "take." He will eventually tie the cue words to the behavior and you will then be able to use them as commands before he gives.

After a few repititions, give him a chance to play with the toy how he likes for a little while and then trade him for a treat, praise and then put the toy away until next time. Don't leave toys for him all the time for a while....until he gets to the understanding that you provide his resources. This is what a good leader does; teaches, controls resources. It is not about domination.

After you have played this game with the lower value toy, gradually build up to higher value toys.

Stop giving him toys (Greenies) which he values highly altogether for a while until he gets over this. Greenies, incidentally, have been known to cause intestinal blockages and death. I do not recommend them at all or any rawhide items. Kong toys are hard rubber and very good for chewing.

If you planned to have kids around him while he eats, he should have been socialized to kids and to them around his food before he was this age. If you want to try to get him comfortable with kids, I'd be extremely careful and only have them at a safe distance, especially when he eats or has a toy he values.

So, when you say that some behavior is unacceptable....well, that may well be. But it's perfectly normal canine behavior to defend their food. If it weren't, they wouldn't have survived, reproduced and evolved into the domestic dog we have today. Don't forget that their values are not the same as yours. It's up to the dogs' owners to teach them how to have behavior which is acceptable to humans. They don't know automatically. And if you do things to put your dog into a fearful or defensive state, that is why unacceptable behavior comes about.

By taking away what a dog is guarding, you give them reason to guard it. You are confirming their fear that you are going to take away their valued item.

I never just randomly take away my dogs' food bowls. Something I DO sometimes do is to pick up the bowl, mid-meal, put something yummy in their with their food, and quickly put the bowl back down again, although I started that by just putting stuff in their bowls without actually picking it up. This teaches them that if they let me take the bowl for an instant, that it comes back down with something even better in it!

As far as guarding chew toys, I think it is best to teach the dog to "drop it" if you need to take the toy for any reason.

All of my dogs are expected/trained to tolerate me being around/touching them/taking up bowls and items if necessary while they are eating. If I did not teach that skill to them, it would be a liability. Not to say that after I teach them this that I pester them all the time with it though.

I always start out my puppies from day one by conditioning them to me touching their food while they eat a time or two during a meal for a while, putting something yummy in it, moving the bowl over to the other side of the room....just here and there, not so much as to pester them, but just so they are comfortable with me by their food and toys....whatever. They learn that there is nothing to fear and do not develop that defensiveness at all. They know I'm the one who controls their good stuff. I only have to do that for a while and they're good to go for the rest of their lives.

My dogs know both "give" and "drop." With retrieving, I want them to hold and then give to my hand. If they pick up something which is dangerous, and I need them to drop it right away, they know, "drop it."

I interrupted meals with Roxy when she was young, but soon after decided it wasn't really neccessary. BUT, sitting and waiting calmly before I put the bowl down was and still is something we practice.

As for bones and toys, they've never been possesive over toys, not really bones either. But in my house, when I had two small children over quite frequently, snarling/growling if anyone neared the bone was not acceptable. Yes, I could've removed their bone while the kids were around. Or, as we did, learned to all coincide together.

Many a times while the kids were playing, one may have accidentally kicked the bone while running by, or a ball rolled up onto a blanket where Roxy was chewing on her bone, and not once has either of them growled or snarled if approached with a bone nearby.

Part of their mentality towards "bones" though, I'm sure is lax, because they get tasty, yummy high value treats ALL the time. It's not a once in a while thing that has to be guarded, their bones are out in the open now all the time, for anytime chewing. *shrugs*

That's great Roxy. Your dogs feel safe about keeping their bones. But for the O.P, since his dog is already showing this defensive guarding, it would not be advisable for him to have high value bones or toys lying around all the time.....in his case. First the dog needs to have exercises, lessons so he learns that humans aren't a threat to his stuff...and then he needs to have a maintenance "diet" of these exercises for quite a while until he gets in the habit of having a new outlook about his possessions and new replacement behavior well in place. Down the road a ways, it may come to the point where he can leave things like that out too. Just wanted to clarify that although some dogs, mine incuded can have high value things at their disposal without guarding issues, when someone is already having a problem, then that privelge needs to be put on hold.

I understand Doberluv. I should've clarified that that statement was more my explaination or thoughts as to why *my* dogs do not guard high value things such as bones.

Great advice everyone, I don't have anything to add to all you've said.

I too don't take away my dogs food, nor scold them for a warning grow, as I'd prefer to be warned, not bit.

I also taught, take, drop, and wait and can take my dogs bowl at any time and put something yummy in it, or tell them to drop a treat or bone. But I don't sit around petting my dogs while they are eating. I don't see any reason for it.

Thanks all for the advice. Those are very helpful.

An update: I tried to feed him directly by hand and by put one by one into his bowl in these two days. I also tried to put some delicious food into his bowl during his meal. He welcomes my visit. I have not tried his greenies yet. But seems situation goes well. Thanks

I have always made my dogs sit and wait until I release them before I let them eat. I only make them wait for about ten seconds (until I am standing up). I also will occasionally pet them, stick my hand in their bowls, or remove their bowls mid feeding and do not allow any growling or the dog trying to force me out of the way. If they do I hand feed them and have them sit, or lay down, for their food.

What I would do with the greenie situation is first don't feed greenies. The can be dangerous for your puppy. I would instead try something like a bully stick or a more natural treat for your puppy. JMO though. I would try removing the greenie and then giving him a treat for not showing any signs of guarding issues. Everyone else has already suggested it but it really works. None of my dogs have ever had that problem so I don't have to worry about doing that. I do do this occasionally though just to make sure they are still excepting of people removing something of "higher value" from them. I always treat them for giving up their bones without a hassle though. I hope everything works out with you and your little puppy keep us posted (oh yeah and pictures are always welcome here).

yes I've heard greenies can be dangerous too. When you take stuff give him something even better. I'd give more advice but everything has already been said.