Is This Wrong?

Sorry the AKC did get involved. Yes I"m quite aware that you have to approach them in theory, but in reality enough people like what the border collie was and wanted to show them as well. The AKC as the largest registry in the US should have some responsibility to maintain what a breed is. Instead they're more than happy to have shows collect your money and turn a fabulous breed that was hardly languishing, but rather a vibrant healthy working breed as it had been for years, into nothing but a "pretty" dog according to their standards. all one has to do is look at all the useful breeds that have been AKC recognized and after so many years, those dogs that are winning in the AKC and championed as the best of the breed are far from it. That's rather irresponsible and disgusting IMO.

But there are other breeds being shown in AKC where their instinct is maintained (Vizslas come to mind, as well as ACD). I've seen a one-eye Cattledog in conformation - lost an eye working stock on the owner's ranch and it can still can compete because it was an "honorable injury". Or Vizslas with scars because they were injured in the field by underbrush.

Being AKC registered doesn't HAVE to be the end of a working dog, but the breeders have to maintain it.

What happened was the AKC told the BC people that they could no longer stay in the Misc. Class to show in obedience. They HAD to form a breed club and apply for full recognition, or they were going to be dumped from Misc, and no longer able to show and earn AKC obedience titles.

I think many people who breed working show dogs would take umbrance to your blanket generalizations.

In what way should the AKC take responsibility for what breeders bring to their show rings? The AKC is a REGISTRY. The National Clubs write the standards, and the breeders make the decisions on what to breed and what gets shown. Those breeders who don't choose to keep working ability important in their lines may lose it.

I'm interested in what plan you would implement to have AKC control the direction a breed takes when it's shown in AKC dog shows.

How many different ways can we say this before people get it? I'm nearly at a loss as for what to try next!

No they do not. Last time I checked that was the responsibility of the *breed club.* If you don't like what you see, well the only people you can blame are... the people actually breeding the dogs. AKC doesn't breed dogs. AKC doesn't draw up breed standards. It approves breeds, and it registers dogs so they can compete. Maybe it's a lovely idea in theory to have some AKC "breed police" making sure that everyone is doing right by their breed, but honestly, how realistic is that? And would you *want* that? I can tell you that I don't want anyone telling me how I should be breeding my dogs. When I want advice, I will go to mentors- people who have been in my breed for 15 years or more, not some yahoo that doesn't truly understand the Shiba standard, or what sort of linebreedings to stay away from when you've got a dog with a lot of Ryu in his pedigree.

I would be fascinated to hear this as well.


Excellent example! If it was purely an "AKC problem" then these breeds would be just as messed up as BCs. The truth is, the only people who can be blamed for this are some of the BC people themselves. I really love the ACD example myself. If you look at their standard, it's really the epitome of what a breed standard should be. They *explain* every reason behind the aesthetics of this animal. You know why the dog should have plenty of fill under the eye, you know why color disqualifications occur. I've been doing a lot of research on herding breeds lately, as I want something I can compete in agility with, and more and more I'm leaning towards an ACD. Somehow, the breeders seem to be getting it right with them.

The destiny of a breed lies in the breeders hands. Dogs do not magically turn into goofy slobs or pretty airheads the minute they enter a show ring. Blaming the AKC for ruining BCs is a bit like blaming the NFL for how badly your football team plays.

It's pure laziness in my opinion, for breeders to have all the tools at their disposal to FIX a problem, but choose instead to blame the one organizing body that can do nothing about it. If they really wanted to fix it they could be holding breed symposiums. Petition the one organizing body that not only CAN do something about it, but SHOULD: the BC national breed club!

Beautifully said, Tempura! I feel that the quoted statement in particular bears repeating.

I am not particularly fond of AKC, but if BC people are going to blame the registry for the breed's problems, they're barking up the wrong tree. I understand that the issue with the AKC is that it promotes the breeding of dogs for show purposes, but the registry never forced breeders to ignore working ability. The signing of the papers accepting the BC as a recognized breed had nothing to do with the breeder's decisions to breed only what would win.

You do realize that the "show dog" look of bc's that are showing in AKC actually came from imported dogs from New Zealand. The New Zealanders (or whatever they may be called ) were breeding for larger hairier dogs before America even thought about it. Then sent their dogs over here to make them American Champions, and the trend caught on. All of you are making assumptions that these dogs can't work, but I do know there are a number of Ch. border collies that do agility, obedience, herding etc. They did not breed the 'smarts' out of them, its still there. And there ARE people out there who show conformation and performance. Breed to their dogs.

I think one of the reasons that a dog like a Visla or ACD hasn't been bitten by the "breed them into a couch potato" bug is because they are not as popular. Border Collies are becoming a "soccer mom" type of dog where families want them but don't want to have to work them for hours a day, so eventually those drives get bred down to give the public what it wants. Same thing has happened with a lot of the the American GSD lines. People wanted GSDs but not ones that bounced off the walls because it's not out working like it should be. Obviously there are BC lines that are great working dogs and still can compete in conformation, but I imagine there are lines where some of the dog's basic working abilities are being subdued.

Easy, you make the dog perform a suitable working test and show that it can still work, before giving and AKC champion anything to any dog. Then you don't have AKC champion being advertised as the best of the breed, when it can't even work.

and yes i'm well aware that breeders are responsible for the ultimate direction of the breed. But why is it so hard to see that the AKC may only be a registry, but most competitions that people will recognize are sanctioned by the AKC, you can't breed a dog (or not supposed to breed)without AKC registration. They are seen as a ruling body with power in this country, and with that comes responsibilities IMO.

To get to the NFL making my football team suck, in a way they do have control over that too. Your example, they set salary caps, they make rule changes, two years ago, teams with really aggressive bump and run corner backs that were very successful, had the rules, not changed, but re-interpreted by the NFL ruling body, to make them back off the recievers or face penalties. There were more than one or two teams that had there previously effective defensive styles rendered more defensless and instead of big inyour face strong corner backs they had to find smaller quicker guys that could run with you instead of out physical you down the field. So its easy to see how a ruling body can change a team, that was only one example.

DanL makes a great point

what test is suitable? For say a Rottweiler? What about a Pekingese? A Coon hound? An Afghan? A Chihuahua?

Do they all compete on a level playing field?Who will track the results? What about dogs who finish, or meet the requirements to do so, as puppies? Before they are old enough to be trained to pass a working test? Must you then alter the rules for obtaining a CH title so that some wins must be earned after 2 years of age?
So the American Kennel Club should become the referee for all the National Breed Clubs in the US (almost 150), making sure that each dog who completes the requirements for a CH title also has a working title?

What about the UKC registered breeds who don't come under the jurisdiction of the AKC? (there are many)

And ultimately, this would still not stop anyone from showing and breeding any dog. It is unrealistic to expect the AKC to supervise the breeding of dogs in the US. That is up to the BREEDERS.

I love the idea that a dog would have to achieve some kind of working title to achieve their CH. But how would this happen? Could a breed club make this happen just for your particular breed? Or would the entire AKC and AKC breeds have to make this a rule?

i believe this used to be the case with border terriers but i'm not sure, i will check my book

This is why I show in SV not CKC or AKC.

Red you're right, lets just keep giving AKC championships out to dogs that can't do anything.

My point is simple, but I can see you just want to argue.

In america its about the buck, with the akc its about the buck, other countries have shows, puppies can be shown, they are trained, they perform the tests that the breed clubs have sanctioned, they must be titled and shown to perform in the ring and have titles before they are bred or championed anything, but were in america, screw it, we're just a registry even though everyone looks to us an authority.

My god just look at the american GSD, look at what wins in AKC sanctioned shows, they don't even fit the conformation of a GSD, they've changed it to what fits "their" idea, and the AKC sanctions these shows and gives out championships for crap, so yes, they should be held accoutable to a degree, you don't think they should, I do.

It is NOT simple.

It is very complicated.

You cannot say that all dogs must have a title to be a CH. The breed ring is just that, for breed competition.

If breeders select for only pretty fluffy dogs, then that is what those breeders get.

Judges education is important, but the AKC breed ring is NOT to judge working ability. It is up to the BREEDERS to do that. Many breed clubs encourage working titles by requiring them for hall of fame or ROM designations, etc.

Let's keep it simple then. What sort of test would be appropriate for all breeds?

The AKC is not responsible for what is in the GSD ring. The GSDCA is. THEY write the standard, THEY are in charge of judges education, and THEY are who is responsible.

My questions remain, Whatzmatter.

How would this apply across the board?

What about toy breeds?

What about hounds?

What about the non sporting group?

And if you are going to require a "working title", what titles would a Chihuahua earn? A MinPin? A Shih Tzu? A bulldog? A Shiba Inu?

And no one "gives out" an AKC CH title. I am an owner handler, and the road to the CH title on my bitch has taken a lot of work, dedication, time, training, and MONEY to get there.

I strongly resent your implication that it is meaningless for us, or anyone else.

IMO, ANY title is a tribute to a dog.

If you think it is such a good idea for every dog to "prove itself" before being awarded the CH title, then tell us how it should be implemented.

Many of the breed parent clubs (for breeds bred for a working purpose anyway) usually offer some sort of versatility title for dogs that earn conformation and working titles, but in my breed there aren't many that actually care to earn it. Granted we have some dual titled dogs out there, but it's not the norm or even a majority. In some cases, it's not even a lack of ability, but a lack of breeder desire! It really is the breeders' fault when a breed loses their original purpose - the AKC doesn't encourage this with things like, "Please, stop breeding for instinct and only do conformation. We emplore you! Dogs should only be show dogs and nothing else!" I can't remember seeing or hearing that anywhere. But I can say that I've seen many, many breeders who "don't have time" or "really don't care" if their dogs maintain natural instict since "they're not using it anyway". That's a frame of mind - not caused by AKC - that some people have developed when they (the select breeders/competitors) made conformation shows into beauty pageants.

I'm with Red all the way. People who don't actually show their dogs look at this sport from the outside and think "oh how incredibly easy it would be to implement sanction x." Do you not think that we've all wondered the exact same things? But it all comes down to Red's questions- WHAT are appropriate tests for each breed? WHO gets to decide that? HOW do we make sure that said tests are fair?

I asked once before and everyone ignored my question, just as they ignored Red's, please tell me what an appropriate working test for a Pekingese would be? How about a Chihuahua? And yes- what about a Shiba? (Keeping in mind that this is a pack-hunter that hunts wild boar and bear in the mountains of Japan...), An Otter hound? (I'm sure the testing of their natural historic hunting abilities would go over REALLY well...). And once again WHO gets to decide what is an appropriate test for your breed, hmmm? Personally, I would much rather have my own breed club doing that then some random official from AKC, who, let's face it- is NOT going to know my breed as well as I do.

You talk about how AKC should be doing all of these things- I don't understand why you don't feel the same sort of personal responsibility should be held by the breed club and the people actually breeding the dogs? It's really kind of bizarre. After all, breed clubs are the ones with the ultimate responsibility of maintaining and stewarding their own breeds- they're the ones who write the breed standards. Such tests would be much more effective if it were breed clubs that decided on their use, rather than a governing body that has to oversee upwards of 140 breeds. Breed club members could then decide as a whole what test most likely proves their animal's working ability. I know that the Newfie club does a water-rescue test that's quite popular, and Dal clubs have a trail ride test. These titles are incredibly popular, and people strive to obtain them.

Practicality is another thing at issue here. I know many people who have Afghans and other sighthounds that would love to lure course their dogs, but may not because it's incredibly dangerous. This is something I didn't stop to realize until she told me- but dogs are at great risk for tearing ligaments and breaking limbs as they're coursing. And if you try to tell me that it's because they were bred incorrectly may I gently remind you that world-class athletes suffer injuries all the time. In high-impact, fast-paced sports, this happens to the best of them. I run for a division one cross country team, and also go to school with the top women's soccer team in the United States- we're some of the best in the country- but I've never seen the training room empty.

So, many of these breeders choose to title their dogs AFTER they finish their AKC CH. Another good point she made was that just because she CHOOSES not to course her dogs, does not mean they aren't capable of performing. While other people's dogs are chasing plastic bags, hers are successfully running down rabbits in her backyard.

And there are those of us who may respect our dog's natural ability, but not at the expense of the life of another creature. As amazed as I am at what the Shiba can do, I couldn't pursue my desire for a title and some fun over another being's right to life. Some people wouldn't think twice about it, and that's their personal decision. This is mine.

I'm just at a loss as to why no one sees personal responsibility of the breeders as the main issue here? They are, after all, square one.

Finally, I too resent the implication that it takes little work and less expertise to show a dog. Please, by all means come and see what my house looks like when my sister and I are preparing to owner-handle our own dogs, as well as completing university degrees. If you think showing a dog looks so easy, I implore you- please come TRY to groom and show my Shiba bitch in the breed ring . I'd like to see how easy you think it is then. Please come roadwork her as well. I like to do at least 7 miles a day- but she can easily do a 12 miler with me. And if anyone would pay my entry fees- I would die and go to heaven. Out of my college-student's budget I pay for my own. Newsflash. It ain't that easy. If it was- EVERYONE would have champion titled dogs. It's so easy to discredit the work OTHER people do isn't it? Until you walk in my shoes, read my breed-type notebook, look at the research I have been doing on this breed since I was 13 years old, how dare you. Maybe I sound a bit angry, and it's because at this point I am. In a world where most people are pumping out dogs with absolutely no thought to their futures, you're going after some of the people who work the HARDEST to ensure that their breeds are protected. I do realize that things are not perfect- but please remember that blanket statements about all AKC breeders are not only inaccurate, but hurtful. I work hard at what I do.

Finally, if you really think we ALL don't know what we're doing, please pick up a copy of Pat Trotter's Born to Win, Breed to Succeed. It is my Bible, and that of many other breeders. While other people my age are getting wasted in bars, I'm roadworking my dogs in sand to look at my animal's gait. I'm measuring angulation on my animals. In effect, there are a lot of WORKING breeders that could learn a thing or two from Mrs. Trotter.

It wouldn't apply across the board, we were talking about working dogs, BC's in particular, i have no idea what a peke would do, or a bulldog, nor do I really care. Could those dogs even work, i mean their breathing and body styles aren't very conducive for doing much other than running around a ring.

You've been to AKC stuff so you obviously know that the only thing that is impt to them is the show ring. Even the AKC obedience stuff is tucked away in some small corner at the event with hardly anyone even paying attention to it.

If you think i'm really going to sit here and "fix" all the AKC's shortcomings in this thread, keep holding your breath, i'll get to it later.

I have no questions for you to answer, The AKC has some responsibility to keep a breed a breed. I never said the breeders don't most of the responsibility, but if they don't give Ch titles to dogs that haven't been proven, then breeders would be forced to take into all accounts of a dog. What would be so hard about having a BC require herding titles to be shown in the ring???

The GSDCA is an extension of the AKC make no mistake. Its very political and most of the people sitting on the board have never worked a GSD in any venue. They don't even know .............

Forget it, I"m done, too many other things to do.

You can keep your stance that the AKC has no responsibility in this, I say they do, to get back to the OP, yes it is wrong a BC with no "eye" and intensity shouldn't be bred.

Well...when you're going to a CONFORMATION event- that IS what you're most likely to see now, isn't it? LOL. For those of us who realize that AKC sanctions MORE than just conformation competition, and have ACTUALLY BEEN TO these events, it's a little bit more clear. AKC sanctions Earthdog tests, Lure coursing, (yes, even herding), agility, hunting, tracking, and obedience. Most of the time, said events are NOT held in conjuction with a conformation show. A site that is perfect for a dog show is probably not ideal for tracking. On the occasions that you DO find obedience or agility at the same event it is because the CLUB HOLDING THE SHOW sanctions either obedience or agility. (AKC doesn't HOLD dog shows, it APPROVES them). There are plenty of AKC-approved performance events that don't take place within miles of dog shows.

I find it mildly irritating that you see fit to critique that which you have only the vaguest understanding of. Please realize that just because you saw obedience "tucked into some corner" of ONE dog show you attended, does not mean AKC doesn't "care" about performance events. I've been to plenty of dog shows, and I've never seen obedience "tucked into a corner." In fact what I do see is plenty of people crowded around the ring, marvelling at the incredible teamwork between dog and owner. At any rate- AKC doesn't decide where the obedience ring goes...that would be the job of the steward and the dog club holding the show.

And what is this "You obviously know the only thing that AKC people care about is the show ring" tripe? Last time I checked, my dogs were AKC registered show dogs, and I can assure you that it is FAR from the "only thing I care about."

Your disgustingly rash generalizations are best left unsaid. Meet me, meet my dogs, meet my mentors, and THEN decide if all we care about is the show ring. To put so much work and love into my dogs, only to have someone throw it back into my face. Well, frankly I'd love to know what kind of life experience makes you feel so self-righteously qualified to judge.

It would be nice for you to keep in mind that on the other side of the screen are people that really care about what they're doing. That work had at it. That put blood, sweat, and tears into it, and take a great deal of pride in it when we succeed. When you degrade what we do by saying "we only care about the show ring," that we're "ruining our dogs," that our dogs are "unfit to work," well...you hurt people. My dogs are my babies as much as anyone else's dogs are theirs on this board. I take joy in their accomplishments and pride myself in the fact that I am taking all the right steps to ensure a successful breeding program that honors over 6000 years of breed history. It may seem stupid to you, but it's not to me. Walk a mile (or run one, I don't walk anywhere ), in my shoes before you dare criticize the accomplishments of my animals. When you actually *understand* what's going on...then feel free to critique. I always like a second opinion on my dogs!

Finally- not everyone involved in AKC is suffering the same sort of problems. There are no breed splits in Shibas. Despite the fact that there is one between Japanese and American Akitas, and despite the fact that NIPPO style shows are a whole different ballgame. But quit with the blanket generalizations.