Can I post a vent thread?

Danefied

Danefied

New Member
#1
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#1
Actually advice would be good too.

So I'm off today and spending the mornings on forums instead of cleaning the house (mistake #1). Read a post elsewhere about a fearful dog nipping, so the owner alpha rolls the dog in response (doesn't call it an alpha roll, but that's what it essentially is). Owner wants to know how to stop the nipping.

I say attacking your dog for being afraid may not be the most logical approach. I go on to explain how to prevent the nipping to begin with so you're not stuck having to react to it. Poster's response? "I'm not going to praise and comfort my dog when he nips at people."

Okay. So obviously I wasn't clear. I never said to praise a dog who nips, I never said to comfort the dog, I said to step up as a leader, be proactive and advocate for your dog and don't put him in a situation he doesn't know how to handle.

Is there another way to say what I'm trying to say so that it will get through?

I love this article:
Leadership versus Dominance | Dog Star Daily
and would like to post it, but I'm afraid the tone of the article would be off-putting enough to some that the message would be lost. But this is essentially what I'm trying to convey - steer BEFORE you crash.
 
Snark

Snark

Mutts to you
#2
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
4,023
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Midwest
#2
I dunno... I got what you were suggesting (and that's exactly how I managed my Rottie mix so she wouldn't become a fear biter). She was never put in a situation where she felt she had to defend herself, even if it meant me body-blocking and scolding someone's else kid for not leaving my dog alone as I asked.

She never stopped being fearful of strangers but she knew I was there to protect her and never in her lifetime did she ever nip or bite anyone.

I liked the article and if someone is put off by the tone, I kinda doubt they really believe what she's saying anyway.
 
Doberluv

Doberluv

Active Member
#3
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#3
From a behavioral point of reference, you can tell her that Doberluv says (lol) that dogs aren't very aware of their own behavior, especially at times like those where fight or flight is (or is about to) kick in. Dogs learn very STRONGLY by association. To associate the person, dog or object that is causing the dog to react this way with a good thing will tend to change the dog's perspective of that trigger....regardless of his behavior. It's best to pair high value food or praise with the trigger when it is at a distance where the dog is less apt to react or to react less intensely. But if that doesn't happen, it's still better to pair the person with a good thing than to punish the dog around the thing he's afraid of or doesn't like. That will only make his behavior escalate. Never treat something like this with punishment. It will make him distrust his owner and become even more insecure than he already obviously is, leading to more of this nipping (or worse) behavior. And like Snark says, it's setting the dog up to fail by putting him in situations where he's put on the defensive. This alpha rolling definitely puts a dog on the defensive...a place that no animal should ever ever be put.
 
Renee750il

Renee750il

Felurian
#4
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
94,266
Likes
3
Points
36
Location
Where the selas blooms
#4
"Steer before you crash" is a perfect way to sum it up. It has the added benefit of your dog learning that you're going to be looking out for his/her welfare and it strengthens the bond and confidence your dog has in you -- making it more likely that your dog will obey you when you say calm down.

To stick with the car metaphor, it's like checking the oil. It takes a few moments and a little effort, but it keeps you from having to fix a big problem down the road -- or have one that might not be fixable.
 
Doberluv

Doberluv

Active Member
#5
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#5
Renee750il said:
"Steer before you crash" is a perfect way to sum it up. It has the added benefit of your dog learning that you're going to be looking out for his/her welfare and it strengthens the bond and confidence your dog has in you -- making it more likely that your dog will obey you when you say calm down.

To stick with the car metaphor, it's like checking the oil. It takes a few moments and a little effort, but it keeps you from having to fix a big problem down the road -- or have one that might not be fixable.
Click to expand...

"Steer before you crash." I love it. Well put Renee!

Or...if your car is over-heating, don't keep driving it. So, if a dog is "over-heating," don't push him further into the "fire." :p
 
Danefied

Danefied

New Member
#6
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#6
Doberluv said:
From a behavioral point of reference, you can tell her that Doberluv says (lol) that dogs aren't very aware of their own behavior, especially at times like those where fight or flight is (or is about to) kick in. Dogs learn very STRONGLY by association. To associate the person, dog or object that is causing the dog to react this way with a good thing will tend to change the dog's perspective of that trigger....regardless of his behavior. It's best to pair high value food or praise with the trigger when it is at a distance where the dog is less apt to react or to react less intensely. But if that doesn't happen, it's still better to pair the person with a good thing than to punish the dog around the thing he's afraid of or doesn't like. That will only make his behavior escalate. Never treat something like this with punishment. It will make him distrust his owner and become even more insecure than he already obviously is, leading to more of this nipping (or worse) behavior. And like Snark says, it's setting the dog up to fail by putting him in situations where he's put on the defensive. This alpha rolling definitely puts a dog on the defensive...a place that no animal should ever ever be put.
Click to expand...
Nicely explained, and I totally agree with you. At this point though I'm just "eh" about the whole thread. Now some dunce is on there saying you have to roll the dog a certain way, position of hands is very important blah blah. Though thankfully most seem to agree that rolling a fearful dog is not the best course of action.

On another note, I find myself wondering lately what exactly does it say as us as humans that we will so readily and easily embrace violent methods of dog training yet cringe at the thought of "bribing" a dog with treats....
 
Romy

Romy

Taxiderpy
#7
Joined
Dec 2, 2006
Messages
10,233
Likes
1
Points
38
Location
Olympia, WA
#7
Danefied said:
Nicely explained, and I totally agree with you. At this point though I'm just "eh" about the whole thread. Now some dunce is on there saying you have to roll the dog a certain way, position of hands is very important blah blah. Though thankfully most seem to agree that rolling a fearful dog is not the best course of action.

On another note, I find myself wondering lately what exactly does it say as us as humans that we will so readily and easily embrace violent methods of dog training yet cringe at the thought of "bribing" a dog with treats....
Click to expand...
Yeah, Ian Dunbar touched on that in the TED talk Dekka posted a link to a while back. He mentioned that humans, dogs, and horses are the three most abused species on the planet because we tend to apologize to the abuser for "having" to hurt us, and go back to them over and over. Pair that with the average primate's love of punishing those weaker than them...It's a scary thing when people don't recognize they are doing it and take steps to correct the behavior.

I'll have to dig up the link, or maybe Dekka will pop in and put it up again.
 
Danefied

Danefied

New Member
#8
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#8
Romy said:
Yeah, Ian Dunbar touched on that in the TED talk Dekka posted a link to a while back. He mentioned that humans, dogs, and horses are the three most abused species on the planet because we tend to apologize to the abuser for "having" to hurt us, and go back to them over and over. Pair that with the average primate's love of punishing those weaker than them...It's a scary thing when people don't recognize they are doing it and take steps to correct the behavior.

I'll have to dig up the link, or maybe Dekka will pop in and put it up again.
Click to expand...
I remember that one, he said something like "dogs, horses and humans are just so 'beatable'" I think. That's the same talk where he does the motion of the bear slapping your head off... "how do you punish a grizzly bear? Your head is now rolling across the lawn..." I don't know why but that one cracks me up every time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

No members online now.
Total: 572 (members: 2, guests: 570)
Top