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One of my dogs breeders was like this.
I dont care if you think your way is the best and want to tell me why but demanding anything is going to get you nowhere.
We put and end to it real fast...because unless there is something in the contract about food do you really think any court is going to waste their time on a case involving what someone wants to feed their dog?! They would laugh you out of the courthouse and let you feed ALPO for all they care.
I am all for hearing good advice from the breeder but truth be told when that dog walks through my door I will be doing what I think is best.
that would be a valid reason for any individual to keep in contact with their breeder, which can be done via phone or email. but not a reason to need personal information such as a ss# or dl#. 
and while things do crop up, I would imagine it isn't a huge concern if all valid testing was done. it's more of something I might email the breeder about if I noticed something wrong with my dog that could be of interest to the litter.
and while things do crop up, I would imagine it isn't a huge concern if all valid testing was done. it's more of something I might email the breeder about if I noticed something wrong with my dog that could be of interest to the litter.
R
I wonder how many of you would be so brash and adamant if YOU were the ones trying to pick out lifetime homes for the precious puppies you have invested so much time, emotion, and money in.
My puppies are as dear to me as children are to some of you, so excuse me (and others) if we want to make absolutely CERTAIN we never lose contact with the people who have them.
And you are darn right, every single puppy that ever leaves here is mine also until it takes the last breath, whether I'm on the papers or NOT.
It is easy to sit there in your chair and say this or that, but when YOU are the one who is responsible for bringing these lives into the world, it feels just a little different.
Certain breeds such as Rottweilers also have unique qualities that cause us as breeders to maybe want to keep track a little closer than others.
JMO as always.
My puppies are as dear to me as children are to some of you, so excuse me (and others) if we want to make absolutely CERTAIN we never lose contact with the people who have them.
And you are darn right, every single puppy that ever leaves here is mine also until it takes the last breath, whether I'm on the papers or NOT.
It is easy to sit there in your chair and say this or that, but when YOU are the one who is responsible for bringing these lives into the world, it feels just a little different.
Certain breeds such as Rottweilers also have unique qualities that cause us as breeders to maybe want to keep track a little closer than others.
JMO as always.
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I dont fault you for wanting to keep contact and trying your hardest to do that.
But I think people are trying to explain to you (and others) that SS#'s are not an insignificant number that people want floating around.
Forgetting that some breeder could be dishonest.
What if your house is broken into and the documents are stolen?
Would you pay for every past owner to have lifetime credit monitoring and protection?
But I think people are trying to explain to you (and others) that SS#'s are not an insignificant number that people want floating around.
Forgetting that some breeder could be dishonest.
What if your house is broken into and the documents are stolen?
Would you pay for every past owner to have lifetime credit monitoring and protection?
Red, I hardly think anyone faults you for your dedication to your puppies. as mentioned, personal information in this era is still not advised as a means. IF it is for protection of future breeding, then you spay/neuter the pups. but...no matter how careful or caring you want to be, you really have no insurance that once a pup leaves you it is going to be a perfect life. you try best you can, but you just don't have that kind of control. if that's an issue, then maybe you shouldn't breed. like it or not, you are in the lives of those pups if it's desired by the owner...not you. a ss# isn't going to give you that, so it's ridiculous. but if it's been working ok with the people you deal with, then fine for that symbol of comfort for you. but a breeder is a breeder, not a life partner to most.
Hey RR....I am a breeder and I am responsible and I do NOT need an SS. If you do and that makes you feel more secure then fine.
Now back to generalities...
At some point a breeder needs to be able to stop taking credit, and needing ownership (real or imagined) and control...and give some to the people actually raising the dog, imo.
I also know how easy it is, ESP on the internet to make oneself sound perfect and fabulous...and be something altogether different IRL. That goes for breeders and owners, both. No piece of paper or number is going to insulate you from that.
My puppy folks stay in touch with me and vice versa because they want to...not because I will hunt them down using their SSN...lol.
Now back to generalities...
At some point a breeder needs to be able to stop taking credit, and needing ownership (real or imagined) and control...and give some to the people actually raising the dog, imo.
I also know how easy it is, ESP on the internet to make oneself sound perfect and fabulous...and be something altogether different IRL. That goes for breeders and owners, both. No piece of paper or number is going to insulate you from that.
My puppy folks stay in touch with me and vice versa because they want to...not because I will hunt them down using their SSN...lol.
If a breeder requires my social security number or driver's license number to get a puppy, I'll RUN away--not walk. I am willing to give addresses, phone numbers, answer numerous questions, provide references and more. But while I love dogs, I have yet to see a puppy worth risking my identify, financial assets and credit security for.
The only places I give that info to are trustworthy places that legitimately need it. For example, businesses or organizations that keep their numbers stored and are prepared for accepting the responsibility and liability of having such things.
But an individual? No way in heck. And the thought that an individual breeder would potentially have the social security numbers of numerous people is very frightening to me. What if they're visited by a not-so-savory relative who goes through the files? What if they're robbed? Or what if they just have a moment of carelessness, and accidentally throw an unshredded copy of that info into the trash?
Breeders have been placing puppies responsibly for decades without needing such personal info. But if that's the trend that breeders are going towards, I guess I'm going to stick with found strays like Voodoo, or rescues that don't require that info.
The only places I give that info to are trustworthy places that legitimately need it. For example, businesses or organizations that keep their numbers stored and are prepared for accepting the responsibility and liability of having such things.
But an individual? No way in heck. And the thought that an individual breeder would potentially have the social security numbers of numerous people is very frightening to me. What if they're visited by a not-so-savory relative who goes through the files? What if they're robbed? Or what if they just have a moment of carelessness, and accidentally throw an unshredded copy of that info into the trash?
Breeders have been placing puppies responsibly for decades without needing such personal info. But if that's the trend that breeders are going towards, I guess I'm going to stick with found strays like Voodoo, or rescues that don't require that info.
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i agree...
And sometimes you do lose contact. We haven't spoken to Trey's breeder in probably 6-7 years. We signed contracts for him and she had our numbers. We both moved across country and it just lost touch... We emailed her last year but never got a response, so I dunno.
Good breeders try to prevent this as much as possible but there's really only so much you can do. A contract is really only a warning. Unless you keep all your pups then you're never going to have total control over what happens to them as they grow. Unless you pediatric spay/neuter there is always the chance that someone will let their dog be bred be it accident or on purpose.
Breeder contracts really don't seem to hold up too well in court.
Hopefully it serves more as a deterrent. Hopefully between that and the interviewing process you weed out bad homes. Why would someone want a dog they have to go through all this for if they're not serious about it?
One way that Trey's breeder has it work which she had found really useful is giving the owner back a portion of the cost after the dog is spayed/neutered. We got $100 'refunded' for neutering him and while that doesn't cover the cost of the neuter, it is just bit more of an insurance that it will get done. That plus the contract we signed that we would fix the dog.
We are good friends with my papillons' breeder. We go over a lot, hang out with the dogs, meet up at shows, heck my father even goes hunting with her husband... We only know them through the dogs. Having a good mentor who is interested in keeping up with the dogs is so helpful. She boards our dogs and I know she'd always be there to take care of them were something to happen to us. She has kept in touch with everyone who has her pups- I know them all. I know all the dogs and she emails them back and forth and some of them even email us with news of our dogs' relatives. It's really cool.
However, personal information is personal information.
SSN is not worth any puppy. I know I can get a dog from a breeder or rescue that doesn't require it so I will. My father had some identity theft problems and while I'm sure no one wants to masquerade as a me (a broke college student) I just won't risk it.
And sometimes you do lose contact. We haven't spoken to Trey's breeder in probably 6-7 years. We signed contracts for him and she had our numbers. We both moved across country and it just lost touch... We emailed her last year but never got a response, so I dunno.
Good breeders try to prevent this as much as possible but there's really only so much you can do. A contract is really only a warning. Unless you keep all your pups then you're never going to have total control over what happens to them as they grow. Unless you pediatric spay/neuter there is always the chance that someone will let their dog be bred be it accident or on purpose.
Breeder contracts really don't seem to hold up too well in court.
Hopefully it serves more as a deterrent. Hopefully between that and the interviewing process you weed out bad homes. Why would someone want a dog they have to go through all this for if they're not serious about it?
One way that Trey's breeder has it work which she had found really useful is giving the owner back a portion of the cost after the dog is spayed/neutered. We got $100 'refunded' for neutering him and while that doesn't cover the cost of the neuter, it is just bit more of an insurance that it will get done. That plus the contract we signed that we would fix the dog.
We are good friends with my papillons' breeder. We go over a lot, hang out with the dogs, meet up at shows, heck my father even goes hunting with her husband... We only know them through the dogs. Having a good mentor who is interested in keeping up with the dogs is so helpful. She boards our dogs and I know she'd always be there to take care of them were something to happen to us. She has kept in touch with everyone who has her pups- I know them all. I know all the dogs and she emails them back and forth and some of them even email us with news of our dogs' relatives. It's really cool.
However, personal information is personal information.
SSN is not worth any puppy. I know I can get a dog from a breeder or rescue that doesn't require it so I will. My father had some identity theft problems and while I'm sure no one wants to masquerade as a me (a broke college student) I just won't risk it.
Wow, great thread.
If I am dealing with someone I don't know I ask to see a DL and it is recorded on the contract.
I sell my pups in a co ownership until I get PROOF of spay/neuter. And it states in my contract that if the pup hasn't been s/n I do have the right as a co owner to take the pup back and have the s/n done at THEIR expense.
I keep in contact or I should say my puppy owners keep in contact with me. Usually with X-mas cards or just friendly updates etc.
My contract is meant to protect the dog, not me. I also offer a LIFE TIME GUARANTEE for health and I will give them their purchase price back to go towards vet bills.
I ask many many questions, with this breed the prospective owner has to have knowledge or be learning about the breed, that is a must. Most people don't get past the first phone call or email. If we start by email they have to call me. I am pretty good at figuring out who is telling me what I want to hear, no puppy for them.
I now after years of selective breeding typically have an 'interested list' or deposites down.
The beauty of it is now when word gets out that I may be having a litter, people that I know from the performance world start calling. Or people that I highly repect have a friend or student that they are sending my way for a pup.
People ask why breeders want so much from their puppy owners......I think that is easy to answer. As a breeder we feel responsible for the pup/dog for its LIFE, we are the ones responsible for bring that little one into the world when the shelters and rescues are so full. I swore that none of my dogs would ever end up in an abusive home or in a shelter, and to make sure that I do right by them to ensure that they have a loving kind forever home.
That also means that my door is open for LIFE to that dog and their owners, for support on any level.
Because I have always understood that bad things can happen to good people and sometimes they need to bring a dog home to the breeder even if that is for a short period of time until their lives are uncontrol again.
My contract is meant to scare some people, I hope that they do run away.
On the other hand for the right person, my contract is a comfort.
I would rather give a pup away (which I have done) to the right home than to sell it to the wrong home.
If I am dealing with someone I don't know I ask to see a DL and it is recorded on the contract.
I sell my pups in a co ownership until I get PROOF of spay/neuter. And it states in my contract that if the pup hasn't been s/n I do have the right as a co owner to take the pup back and have the s/n done at THEIR expense.
I keep in contact or I should say my puppy owners keep in contact with me. Usually with X-mas cards or just friendly updates etc.
My contract is meant to protect the dog, not me. I also offer a LIFE TIME GUARANTEE for health and I will give them their purchase price back to go towards vet bills.
I ask many many questions, with this breed the prospective owner has to have knowledge or be learning about the breed, that is a must. Most people don't get past the first phone call or email. If we start by email they have to call me. I am pretty good at figuring out who is telling me what I want to hear, no puppy for them.
I now after years of selective breeding typically have an 'interested list' or deposites down.
The beauty of it is now when word gets out that I may be having a litter, people that I know from the performance world start calling. Or people that I highly repect have a friend or student that they are sending my way for a pup.
People ask why breeders want so much from their puppy owners......I think that is easy to answer. As a breeder we feel responsible for the pup/dog for its LIFE, we are the ones responsible for bring that little one into the world when the shelters and rescues are so full. I swore that none of my dogs would ever end up in an abusive home or in a shelter, and to make sure that I do right by them to ensure that they have a loving kind forever home.
That also means that my door is open for LIFE to that dog and their owners, for support on any level.
Because I have always understood that bad things can happen to good people and sometimes they need to bring a dog home to the breeder even if that is for a short period of time until their lives are uncontrol again.
My contract is meant to scare some people, I hope that they do run away.
On the other hand for the right person, my contract is a comfort.
I would rather give a pup away (which I have done) to the right home than to sell it to the wrong home.
I like to give my puppy buyers a choice of when to neuter the dog. It says the dog must be neutered by 12 months of age, and shall not under any circumstances ever have a litter before that time. Since all the recent research done about early neuter, I feel that doing juvenile neuters on an entire litter could be dangerous, so I won't do that.
I, nor anyone else, ever said we would go to your house and reposses a dog. I would get contact through a lawyer on violation of the contract and either get the dog back, or get the owners to fulfill their part of the contract. I do not dictate shot schedules, food, vet care etc. I do give reccommendations on all of that and reccommend a minimum of once a year check-ups. If they choose not to vaccinate often, fine, if they choose to vaccinate every time the vet sends a notice, fine. My dogs come with a lifetime health guarantee and I will take the dog back at any time no questions asked.
I also don't ask for the new owners SSN, but I don't think its a bad idea. I would give mine out. I don't have a problem. My puppy buyer's files are locked in a filing cabinet, no one else has viewed them except for me and the person who signed them.
You can have your identity stolen at a restaurant. I have known people it has happened to. No one has to have your SSN to steal your identity.
I, nor anyone else, ever said we would go to your house and reposses a dog. I would get contact through a lawyer on violation of the contract and either get the dog back, or get the owners to fulfill their part of the contract. I do not dictate shot schedules, food, vet care etc. I do give reccommendations on all of that and reccommend a minimum of once a year check-ups. If they choose not to vaccinate often, fine, if they choose to vaccinate every time the vet sends a notice, fine. My dogs come with a lifetime health guarantee and I will take the dog back at any time no questions asked.
I also don't ask for the new owners SSN, but I don't think its a bad idea. I would give mine out. I don't have a problem. My puppy buyer's files are locked in a filing cabinet, no one else has viewed them except for me and the person who signed them.
You can have your identity stolen at a restaurant. I have known people it has happened to. No one has to have your SSN to steal your identity.
:hail:
I also wanted to add something about a few comments about a dog being "yours" and you can treat it, feed it, or whatever how you choose once those papers are signed. A good contract also stipulates approved methods of containment, living inside, appropriate vet care, training. Not just s/n. And yes, I believe most good breeders follow up on their puppies well being, and from a few cases that I know of having gone to court the breeder contracts hold up rather well.
The breeders I deal with, or am friends with DO consider the puppies they place as their own children. I wonder if a human adoption agency wants a persons ssn???? I bet so. You just have to know who your buying from.
I have rescued pregnant dogs and then had to adopt out the puppies. When they go it is the most heart wrenching thing in the world. Imagine how breeders that have invested time and love in the dam feel.
When I buy from a breeder I can honestly say that I will know enough about them, their career or hobby in dogs, their personality, reputation, etc that I would not have a problem with providing certain info. I guess I just don't go for your run of the mill breeder. And I don't mean that in a bad way. A breeder I will go to will not have numerous litters a year. The time it takes for one well planned litter can take awhile. I like to investigate them as well as having them investigate me.
There have been way to many people that go missing with a dog to not require such info. I bet the contracts I have with people that provide SSN's won't drop out of sight on me, cause they will be found.
Anyways......enough of the SSN thing.....to each their own.
I also wanted to add something about a few comments about a dog being "yours" and you can treat it, feed it, or whatever how you choose once those papers are signed. A good contract also stipulates approved methods of containment, living inside, appropriate vet care, training. Not just s/n. And yes, I believe most good breeders follow up on their puppies well being, and from a few cases that I know of having gone to court the breeder contracts hold up rather well.
The breeders I deal with, or am friends with DO consider the puppies they place as their own children. I wonder if a human adoption agency wants a persons ssn???? I bet so. You just have to know who your buying from.
I have rescued pregnant dogs and then had to adopt out the puppies. When they go it is the most heart wrenching thing in the world. Imagine how breeders that have invested time and love in the dam feel.
When I buy from a breeder I can honestly say that I will know enough about them, their career or hobby in dogs, their personality, reputation, etc that I would not have a problem with providing certain info. I guess I just don't go for your run of the mill breeder. And I don't mean that in a bad way. A breeder I will go to will not have numerous litters a year. The time it takes for one well planned litter can take awhile. I like to investigate them as well as having them investigate me.
There have been way to many people that go missing with a dog to not require such info. I bet the contracts I have with people that provide SSN's won't drop out of sight on me, cause they will be found.
Anyways......enough of the SSN thing.....to each their own.