Koolie Breeding

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#22
Is about border or rough / smooth collies?, anyway, Here's a breeding tablet that I have of the FCI official mexican magazine. :popcorn:

I hope this help.

Note that white collies aren't allow to the FCI standar.



 

BostonBanker

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#23
Thanks for looking, yatahae
I'm assuming you are the breeder, Yata Hae Coolies? If so, I have to say that your site is one of the ones I check almost daily! I want to drive down and steal "Nate" for my next agility dog;) .

Are you up for talking via PM or email? I'd love to get some more info on your dogs/breed.
 

Yatahae

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#25
:lol-sign: Nate would LOVE any opportunity to run full blast all the time. I can give you directions!!! And I'm serious. :)
 

Yatahae

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#26
Anyone that concerened in colouration in a herding breed is a little crazy. Most herding breeds are solid or bi, not merle. To be fiddling with such a colour to that extreme seems completely irresponsible.
Actually, this is not entirely accurate. The Australian Shepherd is a herding bred dog, and was used exclusively as a herding dog until it became the popular show dog. That breed is as much merle as it is bi's and tri's.

The same with the Border Collie. Chocolate, blue (dilute black) and merles are not rare, they can be found everywhere. Shelties --- lots of merles, as are the Corgi.

The Kelpie and ACD does not have the merle gene; nor does the German Shepherd Dog, Malinois, Terv, Belgium, etc....
 

Yatahae

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#27
Im not sure about other breeds (im guessing it would be the same) but I know in catahoula's if you breed a solid to an excessive white you would get all leopards (merle's)

The only way to produce the "Leopard" color, which is a merle - is if one parent IS a merle. Maybe the excessive white you are referring to is a homozygous/double merle. :)
 

jess2416

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#28
The only way to produce the "Leopard" color, which is a merle - is if one parent IS a merle. Maybe the excessive white you are referring to is a homozygous/double merle. :)
Yes I know that.....excessive white / double merle same thing
 

Yatahae

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#29
Yes I know that.....excessive white / double merle same thing

Weeeeell, not exactly. Excessive white really means a dog is white factored, as in - being either pie bald or an extreme pie bald color. Not trying to step on toes.
 

Laurelin

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#31
Actually, this is not entirely accurate. The Australian Shepherd is a herding bred dog, and was used exclusively as a herding dog until it became the popular show dog. That breed is as much merle as it is bi's and tri's.

The same with the Border Collie. Chocolate, blue (dilute black) and merles are not rare, they can be found everywhere. Shelties --- lots of merles, as are the Corgi.
Actually merle was intrduced into shelties with the collie crosses later on, not in the original dogs used solely for herding. Just fyi

But I guess the issue is just generally why do people in Coolies focus so much on ONE pattern. Shelties and other breeds mentioned have merles but most breeders stay away from doubles and no one claims them as a 100% merle breed like some breeders of Coolies seem to do. Why the reason to say falsely that non merles are unwanted throwbacks I suppose.

You explained it well in PM. You might post some of that here, many people would benefit from it I think.
 

Yatahae

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#32
Actually merle was intrduced into shelties with the collie crosses later on, not in the original dogs used solely for herding. Just fyi

Really? I never knew that. I like Shelties, but have never had one and have never deeply researched the breed. My friend, who is an avid Sheltie owner and shower, is probably laughing at me about now. :lol-sign:
 

Laurelin

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#33
Well, all the showing shelties and pretty much every sheltie nowadays is quite a bit collie actually. The originals didn't look much like the dogs of today. the collie was added to make the breed flashier and more like a miniature show collie. The original shelties (Toonies as they were known) weren't very standard at all and they basically picked their favorite type. There was a huge debate back then about which one was the true type. Basically your everday working v showing debate, but now shelties look a lot like collies. The size issues shelties have are due to collie genes too, though I think the merle came from a few later crosses, I'm not sure. They were notorious for crossing 'unregistered shelties' (aka collies) into the lines early on.

Yay off topic!
 

Yatahae

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#34
My question was basically just one of color. You see, I'm a gene major and i don't understand how you can possibly get merle pups all of the time without breeding double merles.
You're speaking of Toolalla Coolies - they (mainly Tabitha Parker) LIE and say they never produce double merles and never produce solids. I used to be on her dog forum and when another member asked me the very same question that you did --- I answered and it made Tabitha so mad because she was caught in a lie that she banned me from her forum and has spent the last year trying to discredit me and my dogs.

I'm inolved with shelties and know that double merles are usually highly frowned upon as many times they have semi-lethal effects.
Coolie breeders do practice breeding merle to merle (M/m to M/m). Most are of the understanding and through mis-information, that the Coolie breed is an entirely merle breed. Which is genetically not possible. Trying to explain that to those breeders was and still is like banging your head against a brick wall. Merle to merle breeding is accepted among that community -- and there are those that still wonder why in the world they produce puppies that are blind, deaf, or both.

I know that double merle x solid can create a 100% merle litter, but if you breed a merle x merle then you get a 50% merle, 25% double merle and 25% solid litter.
It doesn't work like that, in real life situations. Although every single breeding is different - usually Merle to merle produces mostly merles, if not all merles. Some produce 1 merle, the rest solid. Some produce mostly merles, 1 or 2 solids and 1 or 2 double merles. Toolalla kills all solids at birth. They usually kill the doubles, but not always. Most breeders do not kill the solids; and some breeders still have NO clue why they produce solids. I've tried to explain, but it goes smoothly over their head.

Is double merle not as much of a concern to Coolie breeders in general?
Toolalla doesn't care, as evidenced by their continual practice of only breeding merle to merle. It worries some of the other breeders, but they still breed merle to merle. I have to admit some of these breeders are the luckiest in the world at not producing double merles, with their continual practice of merle to merle breeding. Those ethical breeders do openly admit what they produce and make no excuses, they also take responsibility for what they produce (for the life of the dog). Toolalla/Tabitha Parker does not admit they produce doubles or solids.

And why in a working breed is color so important to the breeders?
Tabitha/Toolalla has said that every single puppy that they've ever produced (she said they've beed breeding since the late 40's early 50's) turns out to be a working/herding dog. Well, if that is so then they have genetic anomalies whose genetic makeup would benefit the entire herding world. :cool:

Some don't care what color the dog is, as long as he/she works. BUT, most Coolie breeders do try to produce the merles. It's all from mis-information. They were told, have been told and continue to be told that the Coolie is an entire merle breed. This is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. It's not genetically possible, but some won't listen, some don't care, and it's like banging my head. Toolalla is the leading force in saying the Coolie is an entirely merle breed and that solids are throw-backs (which she has never defined what exactly these "throw-backs are, or what breed). Which is NOT true, but Tabitha Parker will not listen, so it's no use --- they will continue to breed merle to merle and kill puppies.


To me color seems like the last thing a working dog breeder should be worrying about especially when dealing with a gene so dangerous as the merle gene.
Breeding self merle to self merle is better than breeding two merles that are irish spotted, pie bald or extreme pie bald. Some of the Coolie breeders are going to continue breeding merle to merle no matter what they are told. It's better to educate them as to what is safer, than to flame or argue with them. Of course, there are those breeders that won't listen no matter what.

I currently have several cryptic merles; I know they are cryptic, because they were merle at birth, and as they've gotten older their merling has faded (due to being sable in color). Two females that were imported from Australia were said to be a solid color, but when I bred them to a merle --- I knew INSTANTLY they were cryptic. I do not practice breeding merle to merle, because I do not like killing puppies. Accidental merle to merle breedings do happen and if anyone says they've never had an accidental breeding, is just not being honest. No matter how careful you are, if they aren't desexed, accidents can happen.
 

Yatahae

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#35
Well, all the showing shelties and pretty much every sheltie nowadays is quite a bit collie actually. The originals didn't look much like the dogs of today. the collie was added to make the breed flashier and more like a miniature show collie. The original shelties (Toonies as they were known) weren't very standard at all and they basically picked their favorite type. There was a huge debate back then about which one was the true type. Basically your everday working v showing debate, but now shelties look a lot like collies. The size issues shelties have are due to collie genes too, though I think the merle came from a few later crosses, I'm not sure. They were notorious for crossing 'unregistered shelties' (aka collies) into the lines early on.

Yay off topic!

Not really off topic ... :) The Australian Coolie breeders do not have a standard; and according to the Koolie Club of Australia, are not going to implement one anytime soon. So, the Coolies are very diverse in their appearance. The KCA also registers anything that is merle in color. Having said that, this is why many of the breeders of "German Coolies" are so put-off by the KCA, because their Coolies have long lines of lineage. The KCA are registering dogs from the pound > it's all in an effort to gain "numbers" to evenually be accepted into the ANKC. This has caused a definate split in the Coolie community. Eight people, with the KCA, decided to change the historical name from German Coolie to Australian Koolie. Which is fine, now, because of the split. So, whenever you see Australian Koolie (depending on who owns it) may NOT be the same breed as the historical German Coolie.

The German Coolie Club of America has adopted a standard and are striving for strict genetic stability both physically and mentally. At the top of the goal is the preservation of natural herding ability, intelligence, biddability and loyality. Everything that makes a "Coolie" a Coolie.
 

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