My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

-bogart-

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ufimych

you have me thinking alot about breeding practices. and i am unsure how i feel. thats a good thing.

THANK you for the intelligent responses you have given , even though you get thinly vield hostility.

I will now take into consideration everything EVERYONE has said in this thread before i consider a breeder.


If i had time I would be on a puppy hunt , but alas i have none.
 

puppydog

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You stated early on in this thread that you feed kibble as well as ground beef.

I will be sure to tell my dogs that they are not real.
 

ufimych

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bogart, this is for you and also answering several critics at once. Yes, selection of a dog, which you want to share your life with is a serious business. Can you imagine how bitter you may feel, if after financial and emotional investment, you have to put it down, because of debilitating health problems? This is so common now and with some breeds it became simply impossible to avoid. Select the right breed, then, the right breeder; choose one who is using his dogs for some serious physical work, such as herding, guarding, sledding or hunting. Avoid commercial (licensed kennels included) kennels and, of course, pet shops. Look for individual breeder, who understands his dogs and knows what they can do. Before buying my dogs, I was investigating for years, exchanged with emails, looked at the pictures and investigated what the parents did in field and what their brothers, sisters and ancestors did in field and how long did they live a healthy life. Once I decided, I made that final step. Prefer a puppy out of older dogs, if you have a choice. Most hereditary problems pop up at an older age. Parents of 6-9 years of age are a good choice to pick a puppy. Commercial breeders avoid breeding older dogs, because they know that genetic problems show up at an older age. This is how they are overlooking the problems and hide it from others. I have a background in biology and genetics. Nothing will exclude 100%to make a mistake, but it will better your chances. I knew very well about ancestors of Timur and Adel and about their owners, who were hunters and breeders. Other hunters knew of their dogs very well. About the price. I love my dogs and my puppies. They are like my babies and I want them to be happy in their new homes. This is impossible, if the new owner would be not happy with them. Therefore, I investigate every buyer, trying to find out how the puppy will live in the new home. I give away some to my good friends. Selling cheap is not a good idea, because some may think they got trash and would not treat the dog well. If the price is too high, you will repel some good hunters. This is the game you play. We pay for soft drinks 700 plus times its worth. Do not be afraid to pay an affordable price for a puppy you will keep during his lifetime, something lie 11-20 years. You will enjoy active life with your dog, instead of working on his ailing body with vets.
Below I post a picture of my puppies today. They grew up a lot; they are content, playful and fat; yes, on the bare plywood (what a cruelty!). This is what their mother decided. It is easier for her to clean the nest and the pups. It is dry and clean on the floor and the pups are clean and crispy. It does not even smell in the doghouse! Saluki is a clean dog, indeed. This is why some vets recommend no bedding at all. The pups already venture outside sometimes. They are very happy puppies. They hear rain outside, thunder sometimes, rooster's crowing and have fresh air day and night. Very soon they meet our free ranging chickens and goats. I am handling them several times every day and in August, I will start feeding them with raw beef and venison. This is what will make them well socialized; I feed them out of hands only.

Whatever the price, but I learned that some of the participants in this forum hate what I am posting and doing, no matter what, their mind is set up negatively. How about selling them for $200 each? I would outcompete you all! Therefore, my price of $700, is better then prices like $1000-3000 for a puppy out of show winners. Papers come ahead of the dog! I maintain that my dogs are among the best of their breed in USA and Canada. I can name a few breeders with excellent hounds, but they are rare and far between. May be I will buy a puppy from some of them. Good luck!
 
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I'm sorry, but I just don't understand......... What you said just dosn't make any sense to me. Is it just me??
 

Xandra

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I dunno what you don't understand? It makes sense to me... except for the crispy puppies. Personally, I like chewy pups. :)

ufimych, can you tell us anything about the sire?

Nice looking puppies!
 

Xandra

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It is easier for her to clean the nest and the pups. It is dry and clean on the floor and the pups are clean and crispy.
I really didn't mean to drag it out, I just found it a little amusing that was all... I think "lively" might substitute.
 

DanL

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I like ufimych's approach. Basic, natural. Some of you are acting like he's some puppy miller who doesn't care about what dogs he has and who breeds to who. I think it's the opposite- he's carefully selected his dogs based on the needs he has for them, allows them to develop into the breed they were originally, not inbred show dogs with half a dozen genetic problems that are ignored because of their beautiful coats and how they trot around the ring. He works his dogs, he feeds them well, he has a smart approach to vaccinations. I don't vaccinate my dogs every time the vet sends me a post card. I wouldn't even do rabies if it wasn't required. I'll do a blood titer yearly and if they are at adequate levels, then no shots.

I know several breeders who follow a similar approach. Dogs are outside year round, including pups. Pups are whelped in wooden sheds, old camper trailers, anywhere that there is adequate shelter. The dogs were bred for working ability. The only health testing they do is hips on the parents because the purchasers want to see history on that. They allow things with the pups to work out naturally. Weak ones die. The ones left are hard core dogs that get placed in law enforcement agencies all over north America.

There's a guy on another forum who breeds working Airedales. They live outside. They are almost feral. They don't like to be pet but are social with him. When they whelp he doesn't interfere and he doesn't handle the pups. They are some pretty hard hunters who take down wild boar/hogs.

Not everyone who buys a dog needs it to be acclimated to the vacuum cleaner and other household noises. Working dogs are not pet dogs. Look at how many livestock guard dogs and other farm type dogs are outside 24x7 year round. My brother has a Husky. He can't get her to come inside. He's tried. She'll whine, pace, scratch at the doors to go back out. She lives on his back porch and is a happy healthy dog.

Someone commented about temperature and how few people keep their house at a constant temp- ???? what is air conditioning and heating for? How many people have their house at 70 degrees and 30% humidity year round? A LOT!

Someone else made several comments that started along the lines of "I'm not familiar with this breed, but I would think....." Well- stop thinking! Let the people who are experts in their breeds make the decisions on what is best for their dogs. Don't base your opinion on how your particular breed of dog can or can't survive in similar circumstances.

It gets old when people impose their own criteria on other people who breed. I bet most of the people who are so against the op's breeding practices have never bred themselves, they only repeat the things they read and hear about what is supposed to be a good breeder. Well, I think that those who breed dogs for the show ring who ignore genetic defects because it's part of the breed (english bulldogs, pugs, ridgebacks, cavalier spaniels- all the other dogs who have a lot of issues yet are continually bred for how they look and not for long term health) are worse than someone like this person who is breeding for the betterment of the dogs.

One thing for sure- if I ever get into breeding, the last place I'll post about it is here! Too much scrutiny based on emotion and opinion.
 

Crowsfeet

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They hear rain outside, thunder sometimes, rooster's crowing and have fresh air day and night.
This reminds me of how often I see dogs who have high sensitivity to thunder.. and somehow this sentence just struck me as being particularly nice.



Regardless of practice and the various 'idiosyncrasies', it seems as though ufimych at least has a genuine concern for his dogs and their breed, and I think that's very important. It's one element, if not the element, that separates true breeders from the backyarders.

It's also interesting to observe how some people view fulfilment in life.
 

ufimych

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I choose not the best word for what I wanted to say. When puppies are mulnourished or ill, they are sluggish, you feel it by handling them, they do not respond quckly positively, or negatively. They are felt like they are somehwat limp. When everything is correct, the puppy feels firm in the had, or it is trying to free himself. This is "crispy", the animal responds and you feel its muscles in action. Some may even vocalize, if your handle them harshly.
Well, I can tell about the sire. He is Timur out of dogs of breeder in Sanct-Petersburg, Russia. She use her hounds on hare and fox. Russians value dogs capable to overpower a difficult game, which can bite and fight back. This is why they developed Borzoi, the wolfhound. He has a 4 generations pedigree issued from RKF. Now, he is registered with UKC.
Parents of my dogs are as healthy as my dogs are. I mean healthy not because they were taken for regular veterinary check ups. They are healthy, because they never needed a vet, except for a shipping certificate.
I had a pair Airedales in the past. They lived outside and I hunted them. Great dogs, except their coat, which required regular care. I used scissors in the summer. I have very good memories of them and like the breed. The female died, when she was 14 years old and the male died, when he was 11 years old. Those were AKC registered dogs.
 

Xandra

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When I first mentioned the whole crispy thing I was just playing around... then I had to explain it and looked like I was being picky... sorry, I knew what you meant, I didn't mean to come off that way.

At any rate, I think DanL hit the nail on the head when he said that most people here have zippo! experience maintaining working breeds, but have read all those criteria lists for picking a "reputable" breeder. These breeding practices are supposed to be "better" than those of the past, yet overall, working breeds aren't getting any better (why would they?)

Ufimych, please keep us updated as the pups grow!
 
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I agree to an extent that, yes I'm sure he cares for his dogs, and maybe he is practicing a breeding method used in another country? Also, It couldn't have been cheap to ship this dog from overseas. Especialy (sp)? if it does come from such champion hunting lines. So, it seems like he could spend some money on a little better kennel type facility. We once considerd buying a weimeraner from what was said to be a "reputible" breeder. When we had pictures of the dogs and pups sent to us, the parents were tied to a old gsdoghouse with chains, and in noting but dirt. Granted, the dogs looked O.K. at first glance, to be such a "good" breeder the place really turned us off. So,I have no doubt this poster does care for his dogs, but in order to make money you generaly have to spend money, and it sounds like he only wants to make it. He could still take care of his dogs in a "natural" way, and working dogs or not make a better environment for them that will also be more appealing to buyers.
 

adojrts

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Prefer a puppy out of older dogs, if you have a choice. Most hereditary problems pop up at an older age. Parents of 6-9 years of age are a good choice to pick a puppy. Commercial breeders avoid breeding older dogs, because they know that genetic problems show up at an older age. This is how they are overlooking the problems and hide it from others. !
This sadly is very true of the mentality and practice of too many breeders. 'Breed them young before anything shows up.' I have heard this comment come out of the mouths of too many breeders and they are immediately striken from my list of breeders of whom I am have considered a pup from. Although those breeders are generally not even considered by me because they don't hunt their dogs either and are in pursuit of the show ring, so it is a double strike as far I am concerned. This is also true of breeders that rush to finish a dog's CH. in the conformation ring because they KNOW something is going south........yeah that is ethical too (NOT).
And how can either of those be for the better of the dog or the breed??
 

Romy

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I agree to an extent that, yes I'm sure he cares for his dogs, and maybe he is practicing a breeding method used in another country? Also, It couldn't have been cheap to ship this dog from overseas. Especialy (sp)? if it does come from such champion hunting lines. So, it seems like he could spend some money on a little better kennel type facility. We once considerd buying a weimeraner from what was said to be a "reputible" breeder. When we had pictures of the dogs and pups sent to us, the parents were tied to a old gsdoghouse with chains, and in noting but dirt. Granted, the dogs looked O.K. at first glance, to be such a "good" breeder the place really turned us off. So,I have no doubt this poster does care for his dogs, but in order to make money you generaly have to spend money, and it sounds like he only wants to make it. He could still take care of his dogs in a "natural" way, and working dogs or not make a better environment for them that will also be more appealing to buyers.
I don't know. If anyone was looking to make money in dogs..they are in the wrong business. Livestock of any kind is a gamble. There are much more sure ways of turning a profit than putting two animals together and selling the offspring.

Ufimych raises his dogs the way he does because he believes that it is the healthiest way for them to live.
 
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Ufimych raises his dogs the way he does because he believes that it is the healthiest way for them to live.
I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
 

DanL

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I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
I'd go to him before I'd go to someone who does everything "right" (whatever that means) but has no problem continuing to pass down genetic defects because they are accepted as "breed traits". Like high levels of HD in certain breeds, predisposition to things like brain tumors or spinal defects. Continuing to breed shorter and shorter muzzles into dogs like pugs and bulldogs so they can hardly breathe. All of this is accepted among breeders of certain dogs, yet many of them are touted as model breeders.
 

Romy

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I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
If she was under a year old I might agree, but the fact that she is three years old for her first litter says something to me about his priorities.

Not saying I would or would not get a dog from him. There are elements of his method that are interesting, and then some that I wouldn't choose to do myself, but I can respect his reasoning for doing things the way he does.

And I agree 100% with Dan about breeds that include horrible defects as part of their makeup. I could never be involved with bassets or any of the brachycephalic breeds.
 

LauraLeigh

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I guess everyone is entitled to their own belief, but he is just out to try to make a quick buck it seems to me. He is someone I think I would stay away from as a breeder.
I am really curious here, why do you think that? He has *imported* dogs, and that cannot be cheap... He bred at 3, not 1... Just because he does not have a fancy kennel?

To me out to make a quick buck, is when someone breeds simply for the profit, having bred for working dogs for years, this is the focus, not money...

Many may not agree with the methods, but no matter what he does NOT strike me as a money hungry breeder at all.

This sadly is very true of the mentality and practice of too many breeders. 'Breed them young before anything shows up.' I have heard this comment come out of the mouths of too many breeders and they are immediately striken from my list of breeders of whom I am have considered a pup from. Although those breeders are generally not even considered by me because they don't hunt their dogs either and are in pursuit of the show ring, so it is a double strike as far I am concerned. This is also true of breeders that rush to finish a dog's CH. in the conformation ring because they KNOW something is going south........yeah that is ethical too (NOT).
And how can either of those be for the better of the dog or the breed??

Very true, and guess what.... some of the breeders I have heard, with my own ears, say these types of things... Would be considered "Top" breeders in their breeds, and would come across very reputable... No thanks...
 

FoxyWench

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I see profit as a huge concern also based on the fact the op stated directly he IS in it for profit...
But again my 2 biggest issues are the complete avoidence of vet care and the utter disreguard that any dog who isn't raised his way are frou frou "unhealthy" animals. It's one thing for a breed to not be your type of dog... But from what the op has said thus far my frou frou toy dog who lives indoors and is 2 1/2 yrs old has a better catch rate than his amazing "naturally raised" survival of the fittest dogs...

Mabel it's the obvious language barrier but thus far the op has stated a snake bite is NOT an emergency (then in reacent post changed it) nor is an after whelp check up, who cares about testing hips, the dog can run and "work" it MUST be healthy...and an absolute no interfernce policy on his dogs whelping, which in an ideal world is great, but n reality one breached pup could kill them all, one retained puppy and there goes your female...
This far everything the op has posted leads that this bitch on her first litter whelped alon outside unsupervised with none so much as an after whel check up and clean out. To me, THAT is an unessicary risk plain and simple. Sure it's "natural" for a bitch to breach and die during a whelp, doesn't mean you should just Let it happen if the option to save her and the litter is there...
These are Man Made breeds, no matter how old the breed is...by selectivly breeding you are removing it from natures hands...
Nature has already proven when left to breed "natural" you end up with a generic medium sized breed usually black and tan with some very specific features...

Personally I couldn't have dogs the way hunting kennels and the likes do... But I don't nessicarily dislike them... In this case however... It's beyond that...
I also don't agree with breeding overdone characterisicts that effect health like that... I feel the bulldog and pug and other short nosed breeds should be taken back a few steps...the shortend noses whent from short to dangerously squished
the highly roaches backs of the AKC shepards is not how the breed was meant to be...hippo bullies, Danes bred entierly for height ect... I absolutly disagree with all these extreems...and personally don't show at akc confirmation purpously...I'll attend the odd local show for fun ect but find the attitudes of many show folks discusting... I do however feel that at least basic genetic testing and the back up of the vets assistance should it be needed should be bare minimums of care for breeding.

Mabe that comes from working with dogs so stotic that they will run jump hunt ect with displaysia, elbow and knee issues ect. I've sen dogs work with conditions that would kill a man...but they don't show the pain they do their jobs,whatever that is and it's not untll to late you find out the dogs hips are going... "Ooopps the dog was working well, she looked and acted healthy she wa th best catch dog ever so we bred her...how were we to know she had hip displasia?"
 

adojrts

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Mabel it's the obvious language barrier but thus far the op has stated a snake bite is NOT an emergency (then in reacent post changed it) nor is an after whelp check up, who cares about testing hips, the dog can run and "work" it MUST be healthy...and an absolute no interfernce policy on his dogs whelping, which in an ideal world is great, but n reality one breached pup could kill them all, one retained puppy and there goes your female...
This far everything the op has posted leads that this bitch on her first litter whelped alon outside unsupervised with none so much as an after whel check up and clean out. To me, THAT is an unessicary risk plain and simple. Sure it's "natural" for a bitch to breach and die during a whelp, doesn't mean you should just Let it happen if the option to save her and the litter is there...
These are Man Made breeds, no matter how old the breed is...by selectivly breeding you are removing it from natures hands...


QUOTE]

Health testing would be better if the OP did it, but how is what they are doing by not testing, worse than those breeders that do test and know that the dogs are effected but breed anyways??? We had one of them on this board, who was justifying breeding their dog that only had a fair (good? can't remember) reading for OFA. How is that better especially when those dogs also DIDN'T work. The anwser is simple neither is right but I don't recall anyone beating that regular Chazzer up over it the way it has been beaten to death here. The OP does have a valid point that a dog that can work all day for years without showing signs of lameness and comes from a long line of dogs that are the same, is excellent proof of a lack of unsoundness. Backing it up with clearances would just be the Icing on the cake in my opinion. And the OP should seriously consider it.

The working dogs that you are talking about, I would have some serious questions to that person about the dog/s. Yes dogs can be very stoic in the moment of working or performance/dog sports but the next day or two days later they do show it and a good handler/owner that isn't blind to what they are seeing would know (whether they admit it to themselves or others is a different story). I would also question how long the dog was working for, how hard it work and if the lines behind that dog were known for being able to work into their teens (taking into consideration the breed/size/life expectancy of the breed etc).

A breeder in the working dog world if they are not careful very quickly can't sell pups to working people if the dogs have issues whether it be from temperament or lameness etc. Word travels fast through those circles and although working people generally don't care about colour, an ear that isn't correct etc but that dog had better be a good working dog and for years, because the tolerance for a non worker or for health issues that effect working ablility are not generally tolerated very well. I know in my breed, if you know the right people (more importantly if those people will tell you) who has dogs that are known NOT to work and who to avoid if your seriously looking for a working dog. Just as it is no different for the show world, when certain breeders or lines produce non-showy, dogs that don't show well. Everyone who knows, shys away from them, although the novice/newbie is often ripe pickings for such breeders to flog those dogs off onto.

Are or have you ever been a breeder to be giving opinions on what is or isn't done pre or post whelp? I personally know and talk to in person or by email at least 50+ breeders (probably more) and to my knowledge not one of them does a post whelp exam with a Vet on a bitch unless they suspect a problem. I consider myself to be a rather limited breeder in the number of litters I have produced over the years, but I can tell you that on the advice of my Vet, other Vets that I know and fellow breeders plus my breeding mentors, that taking a bitch to the Vet for a post whelp exam generally isn't needed nor advised. Therefore I have never done it.

Good grief, the OP has imported the dogs, waited and done research for years, PROVES the dogs as WORKING dogs....therefore investing a lot in them. So why on earth shouldn't they get something back and profit???? The OP doesn't sound like a mill, brb or commerical, so what is the problem??

Personally I think the reason some people are attacking this person is because they are stinging that there is a lot of truth in what the OP is saying about unhealthy dogs, unfortunately the OP used the words Frou Frou, but it doens't change the fact that there is some merit to it. And the only ones getting weathly because of it are the breeders of such dogs, the Vets and Pharm companies.

If breeders STOPPED breeding from dogs with known health, temperament and genetic issues by culling those animals from their breeding programs instead of doing what they consider to be 'educated risks' in which everyone pays, esp the dog and the breed, we would all be better off.

JMO.
 

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